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Tuesday, November 23, 2021
Survey Request - Church Growth and Missionary Work in Your Area Post-COVID
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Not for my ward but in the next mission over, in Orem (offices actually in Lehi) they reported a major increase in first discussions and a doubling of baptisms.
The Provo Temple rebuild rendering and the Smithfield rendering have both been released.
I have to say I think the new Provo Temple design looks really nice.
I keep hearing from my area - Newport Beach California Mission - of an increase in baptisms since the at start of Covid. Attributed to better social media engagement by the missionaries. It's easier to be taught the first discussions thru Zoom without fealing committed.
On Newport Beach and southern California in general, online beats the 405 any day and with that under construction it is not that easy to get around right now. Forget the lights too, you don't have to waste time sitting at them when you can get another online discussion going right away and just after the last one as well.
They reported this in the LA mission which includes San Fernando Valley too.
Hello again, everyone! As was noted in a couple other comments on this thread, today, the Church released the rendering for the new temple in Smithfield Utah and the rendering for the planned reconstruction of the Provo Utah Temple:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/provo-smithfield-utah-temple-exterior-rendering
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2021-11-24/redesigned-provo-utah-temple-exterior-rendering-233985
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2021-11-24/exterior-rendering-smithfield-utah-temple-released-234132
Given that the Provo Utah Temple had one of the busiest (if not the most busy) baptistries among the other current temples of the Church, I wouldn't be shocked at all if the redesign includes a second baptistry for Provo.
Additionally, another Church News report shared today indicates that Elder Ronald A. Rasband, who recently returned from an 11-day assignment to the Africa Central and Africa South Areas, was recently assigned oversight of those areas:
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2021-11-24/south-africa-ronald-rasband-prosper-faith-job-kearon-budge-golden-sitati-234136
I have provided analysis of these updates today on my blog:
https://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com/2021/11/breaking-temple-news-exterior.html
My thanks once again to Matt for allowing me to continue to share these updates here with you, and my thanks again to you all for the contributions you make to the discussions on all such developments.
I get a little sad. Mr. Fetzer's 70s pearls seem to persist only in the underdeveloped world, as if his work were dated to be kept where the Church expands the most. I was baptized in the early 1990s, when this design was still vibrant and splendid, and I will miss associating the Spirit of the temple with this beautiful architecture that is lost in Provo and Ogden. At least as a good thing, it's stays here in São Paulo for a while longer.
You have a way of writing compelling information that sparks much interest.
When visiting blogs, i usually discover a very good content like yours
Gerberian Shepsky
Shepsky
I've had to let the Provo rendering marinate in my mind for a bit. I was really undecided at first. I think it's better than the existing design but not what I expected or wanted. To me, it looks like the new temple design is smaller, which I think would be a huge mistake. If anything, it should remain the same size or grow a bit to include a second baptistry. And I think getting rid of the Fetzer arrangement of endowment rooms would be an even more grave mistake. That temple is efficient like almost none other; retaining that efficiency should be a top priority. I just don't see that from the rendering. We need to see some blueprints.
Smithfield looks nice, though I'm not crazy about reusing the Lindon floor plan here. The Smithfield site isn't quite as narrow, so I would prefer a more squared off building, maybe more like Syracuse or Saratoga Springs.
Interestingly, KSL in its article on the new Provo rendering and history had for a very short time one WITH an Angel Moroni statue, but it was quickly replaced.
The spire on the new one is more lightning bait than the current temple spire is, as it does look like the temple will be taller.
The cafeteria will be gone, so it is even more likely that there will be a second baptistry, as it will close anyway in February when all but two will close for good, those two will take longer to close out.
IT ALSO LOOKS LIKE THE MAIN FLOOR WILL UTILIZE THE SAME FOOTPRINT AS THE CURRENT TEMPLE DOES.
PS: Reported the blog comment spammer to Google and Blogger, it's the one before my comment relating to the Provo Temple with the inadvertent allcaps.
I won't miss the old design at all, but the new one kind of just looks like any other white box-shaped temple built in the 2010s. Mixed feelings.
I have to admit the new design sells me on more windows alone.
I hope this release of the design means that Orem Temple will definitely be done in 2022, but maybe I am too optimistic.
Will 11 undedicated announced temples Utah area has the most under way of any area. The next highest number is 7 in Brazil Area. It was North America Central until that area had 2 temples dedicated.
Utah Area has the most temples. It also by far has the most members. It has a high number of stakes per temple, but it also has more large sized temples than other areas so the stakes per temple ratio is not comparable.
A straight up stakes to temple Square footage would not be fully accurate, but would tell us some things.
I know that a lot of people have publicly expressed opposition, frustration, or sadness about how much the Church plans to change the Provo Utah Temple. While I understand the reasoning behind such expressions, I'd like to emphasize that we don't yet have all the facts about the rebuilding plans for Provo. That could be a pertinent point if, for example, the Church is looking to put in two baptistries instead of just keeping the one. There could also be a reconfiguration of the rooms, or perhaps additional worship spaces planned. I know that the OG designs of Provo and Ogden's temples were iconic, but I'm inclined to believe they needed to be iconic for the times in which they were built. If the Church is able to adjust the layout through the design change, in the long haul, that will be important in enabling the Provo Utah Temple to sustain higher usage rates, since there have been long waits reported for most ordinances under usual circumstances. I'd also point out that just because the design was released now, that may not mean it's the final design thereof. The Orem Utah Temple may only be completed in the next 18-21 months, which would place its' dedication around 2 years from now, give or take a month or two. If we surmise that the Orem Utah Temple will be operating by late 2023, the renovaton for the Provo temple could start before the end of the year, or after the first of the next year. So there's a lot of time, and with enough time, changes are possible.
I know there are a lot of people who still assert that public outcry, rather than real revelation, was the reason that the prophet announced a temple in Ephraim in order for the Church to be able to preserve the murals inside the Manti Utah Temple. So it would not shock me if public outcry about the redesign leads the Church to seek inspriation about adjusting that. While I certainly hoipe people will come around to the idea of accepting this redesign as what is needful for the area it will serve going forward, I will also not be shocked if that does not happen, or if, as a result of that outcry, it becomes necessary for the apostles to reconsider that design. I wish more people would remember that "when the prophet speaks, the debate [should be] over."
I'm pretty sure widespread distaste for the original design is why both the Ogden and Provo Temples got redesigned to begin with. I actually can't think of a single other instance where a temple's appearance has been so radically altered during renovation. I think the people who want to keep the old design are very much a minority. Now if it were from the pioneer era and not the 1970s, they'd probably want to keep it for history's sake no matter how ugly it is.
I personally find it much too much of a coincidence to swallow that the Church changing its plans to save the murals had nothing to do with people complaining and signing a petition to save the murals. If the Ephraim Temple had nothing to do with the prior outcry, then it should have been in the plan all along so no outcry was necessary. But outcry and revelation are not mutually exclusive. After all, we still follow a health code that came by revelation because of Emma Smith's complaining.
Here is the growth in stakes and wards for 2021 through Nov 26, 2021:
Increase in stakes: + 32, from 3463 to 3495; + 11 US, + 7 Utah
Increase in wards and branches: + 175, from 31,035 to 31,210; + 95 US, + 70 Utah
increase in wards + 190, from 24,037 to 24,227; branches down 15 from 6,998 to 6,983;
increase in wards US + 67, from 12,780 to 12,847; branches + 28 from 1,793 to 1,821;
increase in wards UT + 66, from 4,980 to 5,046; Utah branches + 4 from 317 to 321
States with largest gains, ID + 16 to 1,210; FL + 8 to 281
States with largest decreases, CA - 24, WA - 14
Year-end 2020 showed CA with 1,216 W&B and ID with 1,194; current totals CA 1,192, ID 1,210
The Utah Area had the greatest W&B growth for a single Area, + 70, from 5,383 to 5,453, but the 3 Africa Areas combined had a higher percentage increase, + 74, from 2,348 to 2,422.
Africa and Utah accounted for 144 of the 175 YTD increase, or + 82.3%
Christopher, I agree with your opinion offered in the first paragraph of your comment, but I don't necessarily believe that public outcry played as significant a role in the changes to the originally-announced Manti renovation plans.
I say that because of comments made by apostles about the original 2015 decision regarding children of same-gender couples, which was followed by clarifications and further adjustments 2-3 years later. With reference to the two changes, the apostles who have talked about how those determinations were made indicated that they were impressed to make the original announcement, which they did, and then they continued to discuss and pray about the issues relating to that decision until further guidance was received, at which point the revised adjustments were announced. The same process apparently applied to the discontinuation and then reinstatement of the Saturday Evening Session, and nothing I've seen in the public domain seems to confirm that public outcry played any role whatsoever in either of the two "reversals." Of course, that's nothing more or less than my own opinion, in which I could be mistaken on any or all 3 accounts. If anyone is aware of any sources that state that public outcry led to any or all of these decisions, please let me know. Thanks.
I feel it is a mix of both. As I stated in a comment above, most of our revelations came from a struggle with an issue of concern, either through public outcry, personal worry, or other issues that the prophet felt needed prayerful concideration. Even the Brother of Jared had questions about lighting the barges and prayer about it. The Lord did not tell him that they needed lights until he saw a need and inquired about it through prayer and his own problem solving with guidence. That is also how we grow and progress in our faith. With a few exceptions most promptings we get from the Lord come through our studying the scriptures, the words of modern prophets and apostles, and fasting and prayer to seek answers. We may not know there is an issue or problem in our own lives until someone points it out. And then we can prayerfully seek guidence and "Hear Him." It is not always public outcry, but question and seeking answers to an issue or problem that comes to the leaders attention (or our own for personal guidence) seems to be always part of revelation.
Just about every revelation including most of the doctrine and covenants and the begining of the restoration for example, the First Vision came from questioning and inquiring of the Lord for guidance and and answers. Therefore after some outcry, worry, concern or other problem or question comes to the leaders'attention then fasting and praying to the Lord about it, seems to be part of every revelation in the history of the church.
I feel this includes personal revelation. When we are faced with a problem the Lord does not usually automatically inspire us. We are taught to search, ponder, and pray, often with fasting to seek guidence and answers in our lives. But I agree the prophet is inspired. It also really does not matter what the outside (or inside) of a temple looks like. It just needs the appropriate rooms and space dedicated to perform the required ordinances for our salvation and that of our ancestors. Even a temple size is not important for the work but is determined by the needs of the local area and we try to use the best materials as it is the house of the Lord. Just as we "Should not judge a book by its cover,"we need to be the same with people and the the House of the Lord. Some will miss the old design, but many will embrace the new one.
I have seen lots of comments from people who like the new Provo Temple design much better.
There is a certain group pf commentators on the internet who attack The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saibts at every turn, often in ways that lack internal consistency.
They gripe about too much money spent on Temples, yet also gripe at temples being too uniform, a process that saves lots of money.
They gave even more incoherent hate for standard chapel building plans, a process that fully elimanates the need for architects on individual projects and saves huge amounts of money.
Living in Detroit I have heard the unending gripes of historical preservationists and know they are best ignored. They do not want a world people can actually live in and will gripe at a 40 year old building that had no architectural value at all coming down to give a 100 plus year old museum enough parking space to adequately attract patrons.
The fact so many of these people attack everything and do so with no coherent reasoning makes me feel they are insincere.
The other fact is that everything we have seen in Ogden shows pluses from the remodeling. To be fair there are other factors involved so the remodeling change of architecture can not be said to be the only factor.
The internal changes in these temples, to include safer and stronger structuring, are at play, as implied above. External factors are always evident, but the purpose and capacity are the key components.
When people attack the Lord’s church along financial and money lines, they are attacking me and about 10 million other faithful members and how we invest and donate in good faith.
Simply put; haters gotta hate.
Critics of the church ALWAYS move the goalposts of any argument against the church and it's members when the facts and/or circumstances change. Like the Salt Lake Tribune -they just can't leave the church in peace, no matter what. 👎
I personally like the new design of the Provo temple.
Unfortunately for the supporters of the 'birthday cake' design; their opinions are in the minority. 🤷
Agreed. It's the doctrine & case of 'God Helps Those That Help Themselves'; it seems that in many circumstances in scripture and in world history -Heavenly Father usually meets us/intervenes halfway when we meet Him halfway in our efforts, or struggle against adversity.
Whether you like it or not; it seems to be the way that God works; granted there may be special exceptions on rare occasions; yet He largely works in the way of the former, under most circumstances.
The same circumstances happened with the 1890 Manifesto, and in other events; the Saints were stuck between a rock and a hard place on plural marriage; they had exhausted all legal and political routes trying to defend their practice; with Utah on the verge of having its statehood application put on ice, and the potential threats of a complete halt to temple work AND even a potential pogrom from the federal government -if they didn't stop the practice at that point.
So H.F. told Wilford Woodruff to cave to the feds and stop the practice. He even visually showed him the dark alternative of what would happen to the church if they didn't -to really drive His point home.
That's how the manifesto happened. We're I Wilford Woodruff himself and in the same desperate circumstances -I would've taken the SAME exact path.
The Dayton Ohio North Stake took 2 of its wards from the Toledo Ohio Stake, St. Mary's Ward and Lima Ward. This also meant they were moved out of the Detroit mission. St. Mary's surprises ne not at all, but moving Lima and leaving Findlay seems odd.
You have to draw a lime somewhere, and this was probably the best place for capacity reasons.
JPL, Findlay is closer to Toledo and Lima is closer to Dayton (although by only a few miles), so keeping Findlay in the Toledo Stake and assigning Lima to the Dayton North Stake makes sense.
Fan of the new Provo design 😊
The Lisbon Portugal Stake recently organized its 12th congregation. The "Bom Sucesso Ward"
193 Dec 01, 2021 Bom Sucesso Ward
And in Alberta Canada, the "Medicine Hat 1st Ward" was consolidated.
134 Dec 01, 2021 Medicine Hat 1st Ward Medicine Hat, Canada
Just realized by looking at Brian Olson's 3D model of the Willamette Valley Temple that it's kind of like a smaller Bountiful/Mount Timpanogos design. In fact, looking at the designs for temples such as Helena, Belém and Yorba Linda, it looks like this new cross-style floor plan design for some of these small and smaller sized temples may have all been influenced by Bountiful/Mount Timp.
https://youtu.be/hDj2UgQH-kM
The Kanosh 2nd ward was just formed in Millard County Utah in the Filmore Stake. This is the first New ward formed in that stake since before 1930. It did get a Spanish speaking branch in the last few years though.
Of course Toledo stake is an interesting case where Toledo goes to the northern edge of the stake. Part of me wonders if it would not make more sense to put Monroe Ward in Toledo Stake. However Westland Stake is at 5 wards right now so either Detroit River needs yo become a ward, a ward needs to split, or they need to take a ward from another stake.
The Toledo Stake Center us south of the city in Perrysburg Ohio.
I wonder if Fillmore ends up with a small temple in the next five years. There are still quite a few small towns with a lot of active members. A temple there could serve Delta reasonably, as well, and it would just cut down travel time for a lot of members in central Utah.
I wonder how many stakes the Manti Utah Temple can afford to lose. It has few for it's size and with the Ephraim Utah Temple announced it will have even fewer. Some predictions also place a possible temple in Price Utah, others say Richfield. If that region grows more or if the saints use the temple faithfully enough to keep it busy at or near capacity, I can see more temples. But travel should not an issue compared to other saints around the world have many many times the distance and time to get to the nearest temple. I think that since the barcode was added to a temple recommend, they can easily track which wards and stakes use the temple more to constitute where to build new temples. If the Fillmore is using the temple a lot, they could have potentially have priority. I at one time thought Price would get one before Ephraim based on distance. But I also see that Ephraim may serve older members and students based on accessibility (transportation for students, and better ADA compliance for older and disabled) rather than which stake they belong to.
The Church just announced the creation of the "Hawaii Laie Mission" starting next month.
https://www.thechurchnews.com/global/2021-12-03/new-laie-hawaii-mission-created-235228
I think a Price Temple is very likely and it shouldn't affect Manti. I'm not sure why Price's stakes are assigned to Manti since the Payson and Provo City Center Temple are actually much closer.
When my wife attended Snow College, she and her roommates went to the temple in Manti at least once a week. From what I can tell, while Snow is not a big school and the area is very transient in its population, the percentage of active members at the university is comparable to BYU (likely well above 95%). So utilization is likely high and having a temple in Ephraim specifically for this population is going to take some stress off of Manti when the renovations are done.
Price could still use a temple.
I think the next generation of temples in Utah is going to be primarily smaller temples designed to cut travel times and take some pressure off the larger temples they feed into. The one exception to that may be another temple in the southwestern Salt Lake Valley (Herriman for example) or a temple between Payson and Provo (Mapleton/Springville).
Found out one factor used in determining where and when maybe to site a new temple is one that is not widely known. That factor is 'are there enough men mature in the gospel to serve as sealers?
Remember that is that last ordinance needed by a married couple, living or dead. In 2016 the Provo City Centr open house committee had everything set, you would end at the celestial room after seeing the large sealing room on the west end, but Elder Bradley Foster suggested a change, make the large sealing room last to emphasize the importance of the sealing ordinance, so although it was slightly convoluted, they got things to work, and it worked out quite well.
There will be more urban temples in the Salt Lake Metro, Taylorsville and Orem will be only slightly larger than Oquirrh Mountain, and that one is larger than Draper.
The Herriman one is a shoo-in given the growth, and the Lehi matter is very likely, but an east side mid-valley temple will eventually be needed, and as things play out even more will be needed on the west side byt that area is years off.
Price's economy is crap, mining is the main industry. It does have a school in the USU system, may be a snaller one as the area is not that big and not growing otherwise.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/hawaii-laie-mission
Part of me think Delta is more likely to get a temple since it has 2 stakes. On the other hand I expect Juab County to get a new stake by 2025 and be to 5 by 2030. I could be wrong though.
For areas like Utah baroda and use tracking ID probably helpful to predict where new temples are needed.
For a place like Uganda, or Mongolia or maybe even Cuiaba, Brazil or Punta Arnas, Chile these are not going to be the best measures.
In a place like Kampala, Uganda most members will not be going to the temple anytime soon, but clearly some would go if a temple were to be built. So you have to judge when people are ready for it, even if very few have gone yet.
Reading the history of The Hawai'i Temple I think before 1945 when President Wooley was given 2 counselors for most of 8ts history only the temple president had been able to do sealing.
I can see this being a factor, especially after they had to shut down Aba Nigeria Temple and then reopen it with all local Temple workers because of security concerns.
Do you really need sealers beyond the presidency absolutely. My marriage/sealing was performed by the temple president. I think Detroit Temple may have 5 sealers beyond the temple president, but it might be more than that.
I would think that patriarchs would generally be clearly acceptable as sealers, I have known some who were both simultaneously.
However patriarchs cannot generally simultaneously be in the temple presidency.
I can see this being a concern. It is why temples in areas with no stakes are rare.
So where's the November newsletter?
Seems the activity of this site has royally slowed down since the summer. 👎
It does seem to have slowed down a bit the past few months, but I hope no one will be too hard on Matt, the author of this site. He is after all doing this as a voluntary service, with presumably no advertising or other revenue (for which I am glad -- ads would very much detract from the experience). I'm grateful he does it, and while I do miss more frequent posts because I enjoy them, I'm sure he has lots of other things in life keeping him busy (among them another site, cumorah.com, which is quite substantial).
Yes, I have been extremely busy with managing my practice, training interns, supervising employees, family, Church calling (I am the first counselor in the bishopric for my ward), temple/family history work, and I could go on and on. My goal is to provide more regularly updates going forward (at least once per week). I'll try my best. We are definitely overdue on having some updates to the lists on stakes likely to divide, countries with the most members without a temple, countries with the most members without a stake, etc.). I have confirmed the Church is not releasing year-end 2020 membership and congregation statistics. This is because of concerns that COVID has created inaccurate data to report, especially with delays in children of record baptisms.
Matt we understand how many demands you have in your time.
I can see year end 2020 data as not being accurate.
Although I think Austria's new lickdown may mean Church has to go back to being remote there.
Japan's travel restrictions have probably disrupted missionaries. The US ones may have excluded some few missionaries.
I do know Covid restrictions on movement and interaction have been hard in missionaries. The one missionary from my branch was reassigned to a service mission in part based on the difficulty of extreme lockdown in New York state.
@Matt
We appreciate all your hard work and dedication, Matt! You keep your own priorities straight. We're all grown up enough to wait patiently for new posts.
Matt has been really busy, awesome for him. I am sure James would enjoy traffic on his website.
Any talk on new missions other than Laie, Hawai’i?
God’s people are marching along.
Stay true, pay tithing. And fast and pray.
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