One week ago, the Church announced plans to construct 13 new temples. This post provides an analysis of the first six of the 13 announced temples. I will provide Part II of this analysis within the next week.
Kaohsiung Taiwan Temple
The Kaohsiung Taiwan Temple will be the Church's second temple in Taiwan. The Church has maintained a presence in Taiwan for more than 60 years. The Church's first temple in Taiwan was dedicated in Taipei in 1984. The Church in Taiwan achieved significantly higher membership and congregational growth rates than other industrialized East Asian nations until the early 2010s. The announcement of the temple in Kaohsiung is a significant development given returned missionary reports have noted significant long-term challenges with leadership development and church growth in southern Taiwan for decades. For example, the Church discontinued the Pingtung Taiwan Stake (located immediately east of Kaohsiung) in 2019 - the first time the Church had ever discontinued a stake in Taiwan. The new temple in Kaohsiung will likely include at least four stakes in the new temple district (and perhaps as many as eight stakes if the four stakes in the Taichung area are included in the district). All of these stakes currently pertain to the Taipei Taiwan Temple district. Returned missionaries report that the greatest centers of strength of the Church in Taiwan are Taipei and Taichung. The Church organized its first stake in Kaohsiung in 1981, but it discontinued the Taiwan Kaohsiung Mission in 2009. There are now two missions in Taiwan. I added Kaohsiung to my list of less likely temple locations for future temples in September 2019.
Tacloban City Philippines Temple
The Tacloban City Philippines Temple will be the Church's eighth temple in the Philippines. The Church has maintained a presence in the Philippines for 60 years and reports more than 800,000 members on the records for the country. The Church in the Philippines has achieved an impressive turnaround with growth during the past decade after a decade of low membership growth rates and few new stakes and congregations organized. This has been evident by the number of temples in the Philippines (dedicated and announced) increasing from three in 2011 to eight today. The new temple will be the Church's third temple in the Visayas region of the Philippines after Cebu (announced in 2006 and dedicated in 2010) and Bacolod City (announced in 2019). Other temples recently announced by the Church include Urdaneta (2010), Alabang (2017), Cagayan de Oro (2018), and Davao (2018). The new temple will likely include five stake and six districts on the islands of Leyte, Samar, and Biliran - all of which are currently assigned to the Cebu City Philippines Temple. The Church organized the Philippines Tacloban Mission in 1990, and the Tacloban Philippines Stake was organized in 2007. I added Tacloban City to my list of more likely temple locations for future temples in September 2018.
Monrovia Liberia Temple
The Monrovia Liberia Temple will be the Church's first temple in the West African nation of Liberia. The Church has maintained a presence in Liberia since the late 1980s. The Church in Liberia has experienced two periods of rapid growth: 1987-2002 and 2011-present. Currently, the Church in Liberia has five stakes (all organized since 2016, albeit the original Monrovia Liberia Stake operated from 2000 to 2007). The Church continues to experience rapid membership growth notwithstanding the COVID-19 pandemic. Currently there are approximately 15,000 Latter-day Saints in Liberia. Rapid national outreach expansion has also occurred in the past five years with the number of cities/towns with an official congregation increasing from three in 2008 to nine at present. The new temple will likely include all five stakes and the one district in Liberia - all of which are currently assigned to the Accra Ghana Temple. Monrovia has ranked among the three most likely locations to have a temple announced on my prediction list for more than two years given the large number of stakes in the metropolitan area and continued rapid growth. The Church organized the Liberia Monrovia Mission in 2013. It appears likely a couple new stakes will be organized in Monrovia in the near future.
Kananga Democratic Republic of the Congo Temple
The Kananga Democratic Republic of the Congo Temple is the Church's third temple announced for the DR Congo after Kinshasa (announced in 2011, dedicated in 2019) and Lubumbashi (announced in 2020). Apostle Elder Neil L. Andersen visited the Kasai Region in 2016 (the area in the central DR Congo where Kananga is located) and counseled the members to prepare for a temple in the Kasai Region one day. The Kasai Region has experienced some of the most rapid growth of the Church in modern times. The first stake in the region was organized in 2011, and today there are six stakes. The creation of additional stakes appears imminent given steady growth in the number of congregations. The Church operates a mission headquartered in Mbuji-Mayi to service the Kasai Region which was organized in 2016. Kananga is currently the only city in Kasai with multiple stakes (3), and the first stake in the city was created in 2011. The new temple will likely include the six stake and one district in the Kasai Region, albeit many more stakes will likely be organized by the time a temple is completed. Previously trained construction crews utilized to build the Kinshasa temple will likely be utilized in the construction of the new temple in Kananga. The Kasai Region has been included on my list of likely temples for many years. Currently, the region pertains to the Kinshasa DR Congo Temple.
Antananarivo Madagascar Temple
The Antananarivo Madagascar Temple is the Church's first temple to be announced for Madagascar where there are approximately 13,000 Latter-day Saints. The Church was first established in Madagascar in 1990, and the Madagascar Antananarivo Mission was created in 1998. The new temple will likely service the Church's two stakes and three districts in Madagascar, its district in Mauritius, and its district in Reunion. Currently, Madagascar pertains to the Johannesburg South Africa Temple district. The first stake in Madagascar was organized in 2000. Antananarivo was added to the list of likely locations for new temples in September 2018.
Culiacán México Temple
The Culiacán México Temple is the Church's 17th temple to be announced for México where there are approximately 1.5 million members on Church records. I had included Culiacán on my list of more likely locations to have a temple announced until September 2018 when I transitioned the city to less likely locations for a temple to be announced as a result of concerns with violence in Sinaloa State and many ward/stake consolidations in the region. The Church organized a stake in Culiacán in 1977 and a mission in 1987. Stakes in Sinaloa State currently attend the Hermosillo México Temple. The new temple will likely service six stakes and four districts in Sinaloa and Sonora states. The Church in México has previously dedicated or announced the following temples: the México City México Temple (dedicated in 1983), the Colonia Juárez Chihuahua México Temple (dedicated in 1999), the Ciudad Juárez México Temple (dedicated in 2000), the Hermosillo Sonora México Temple (dedicated in 2000), the Oaxaca México Temple (dedicated in 2000), the Tuxtla Gutiérrez México Temple (dedicated in 2000), the Tampico México Temple (dedicated in 2000), the Villahermosa México Temple (dedicated in 2000), the Mérida México Temple (dedicated in 2000), the Veracruz México Temple (dedicated in 2000), the Guadalajara México Temple (dedicated in 2001), the Monterrey México Temple (dedicated in 2002), the Tijuana México Temple (dedicated in 2015), the Puebla Mexico Temple (announced in 2018), the Querétaro Mexico Temple (announced in 2021), and the Torreón Mexico Temple (announced in 2021).
98 comments:
Superb
With things like the announcement of Cody so closely following the temple announcement for Casper, I am actually going to put Taichung Taiwan onto my short list for new temples from now on, and suspect if it is not announced in April of next year it will be announced next October.
Matt, I will withhold my comments about US temples until you post the second part of your analysis. But regarding what you shared in this post, I had prioritized Mbuji-Mayi over Kananga and Taichung over Kaohsiung. In running the research just now, although Mbuji-Mayi and Taichung may be assigned to Kananga and Kaohsiung for the time being, based on parameters set by President Nelson, I'm sure that a fourth temple in DR Congo will be in Mbuji-Mayi, with the third for Taiwan being built in Taichung. And it wouldn't shock me if temples were announced for those cities during any of the next 1-3 General Conferences. None of the other 4 temples you mentioned in this post were surprising to me. And with temples announced for both Liberia and Madagascar, those two nations are now off the top ten list of nations with the strongest Church presence without a temple.
Unless the data I have is mistaken, the top ten nations are now as follows: Uganda, Mongolia, Malaysia, Republic of the Congo, Indonesia, Marshall Islands, Jamaica, Micronesia, Guyana, and Belize.
The latest membership numbers available for Belize show 5,485. That might mark the first time any nations on the top ten list have membership numbers below 5,500.
Hope these observations (such as they are) are helpful to any who read them.
Not sure how this will affect the timing of future Phoenix metro announcements, but a photo of an endowment room posted on Newsroom today showed 101 seats, Slightly more than Provo City Center and yet still more than Gilbert. In the last renovation that temple had four endowment rooms but it is not clear how many are in the renovated Mesa Temple. Or if it is a two-stage setup.
Jim, the Mesa Temple has a four stage progressive set-up for it's instruction rooms. The photo I saw of an endowment room had 78 seats. It is a very beautifully done renovation, seems to really sparkle. I attended the Mesa Temple a few years ago, and was struck by how subdued it felt. I look forward to seeing it in it's new glory.
I think some locations on the west side of Phoenix could be intuitive locations for a small temple. Surprise, Glendale or Goodyear come to mind. I don't know much about membership in these areas but it seems like they are relatively underserved.
As of now, Surprise has 3 stakes, Goodyear has 1,and buckeye has one. The church owns ALOT of land in surprise, and given the growth of the west Phoenix metro (and the church there) I would not be surprised if a 40000 sqft temple was built in surprise. Surprise is also advantaged as it is surrounded by 3-4 different sun city communities (55+ communities). This would make it much easier for seniors who wish to serve to be able to do so in surprise than having to trek out to the Phoenix temple.
The Sun City communities of NW metro Phoenix actually don't have a lot of Church membership relatively speaking. The numbers are substantially greater on the east side of the valley, ie., Leisure World in Mesa along with several others.
There is long-term growth projected along the 303 freeway, now complete from about I-10 tp past US-60. Some expect over 1 million new residents and this could go to White Tanks Mountains and as far south as the planned SR-30 freeway which will trigger SW growth in an area that has not seen that much growth yet. The building of the freeways is what led to the east Valley growth. Not sure how I-11 might impact things as I am not sure how close it will come to Phoenix.
Growth is heaviest now south and east of the under construction 24 freeway, and Gateway Airport (IWA) with extensive growth going in on land once used for agriculture for the Church welfare system. Many deeds in the area list the Church as part of the title histories.
The endowment room with 101 seats, is that the article about the Mesa AZ Temple renovations? I think I only count 78 seats if I am not mistaken.
Thanks for the analysis, Matt. Looking forward to part II. I agree with the analysis on the potential districts for these announced temples. I anticipate that these 6 temples will probably be somewhere in the 10,000 - 30,000 square feet range, but it's a little hard for me to guess exactly. Excited to see the plans as they are announced.
Not sure if this article has been posted before, but is exciting to understand the acceleration of cost effective yet quality temple building we are witnessing.
http://www.thisweekinmormons.com/2021/05/prefabricated-modular-temples-how-a-new-method-could-accelerate-temple-construction/
Also bodes well for places like Rapid City South Dakota to have a small temple which could serve Rapid City and the Black Hills, Gillette Wyoming, the panhandle of Nebraska, and western South Dakota.
As Ellsworth AFB at Rapid City is slated for significant growth in the next 5 years as the training base and 1st operational site of the new B-21 Raider stealth bombers, couple with huge influxes of summer member tourists, it seems plausible.
While searching for Stake/District name changes since last April '21 Conference, I also have discovered the "Frenchtown Montana Stake - 2089181" has been renamed the "Ronan Montana Stake - 2089181" at some point and relocated to a meetinghouse in Ronan, Montana. I'm not sure when this occurred.
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=47.407889,-114.479096&z=9&m=google.hybrid&layers=stakecenter&q=2089181&find=stake:2089181
It looks like Frenchtown/Ronan stake gave a Missoula ward back to Missoula stake in the process.
Outlier Stakes as of 11 October 2021 = 173
(>200 miles to a temple) or (>320 kilometers)
173/3490= 4.96% of Stakes are Outliers
South America 93
Brazil 33
Boa Vista
Macapa
Santarem
São Luis
São Luis East
Teresina Horto
Teresina
Teresina Planalto
Imperatriz
Juazeiro do Norte
Porto Velho
Petrolina
Palmas North
Palmas
Rio Branco
(Vitoria da) Conquista
Cuiaba
Cuiaba Industriario
Rio Verde
Uberlandia
Uberaba
Campo Grande
Campo Grande Monte Libano
São Jose do Rio Preto
Aracatuba
Birigui
Maringa
Cascavel
Chapeco
Santo Angelo
Uruguaiana
Alegrete
Livramento
Venezuela 18
Punto Fijo
Coro
Maracaibo
Maracaibo West
Maracaibo Centro
Maracaibo South
San Francisco
Cabimas
Ciudad Ojeda
Merida
Barinas
San Cristobal Pirineos
Porlamar
Guayana
El Tigre
Maturin
Ciudad Bolivar
San Felix
Argentina 14
Santiago del Estero
La Rioja
Santa Fe North
Santa Fe
Parana
Zapala
Neuquen
Neuquen West
General Roca
Bariloche
Trelew North
Trelew South
Comodoro Rivadavia
Tierra del Fuego
Peru 10
Paita
Piura Miraflores
Piura Central
Piura Castilla
Iquitos Punchana
Iquitos
Iquitos Nueve de Octubre
Tarapoto
Pucallpa
Cusco Inti Raymi
Chile 10
Iquique
Copiapo
La Serena
Coquimbo
Valdivia
Valdivia Calle Calle
Osorno Rahue
Osorno
Puerto Montt
Punta Arenas
Uruguay 5
Artigas
Rivera
Salto
Tacuarembo
Melo
Bolivia 2
Tarija Tabladita
Tarija
Colombia 1
Cucuta
Africa 20
South Africa 4
Bloemfontein
Mdantsane
East London
Port Elizabeth
Uganda 3
Jinja
Kampala North
Kampala South
Nigeria 3
Abuja Kubwa
Abuja Wuse
Abuja Lugbe
Mozambique 3
Nampula
Matola
Maputo
Zimbabwe 2
Nkulumane
Bulawayo
Republic of the Congo 1
Pointe-Noire
Angola 1
Luanda
Zambia 1
Lusaka
Côte d’Ivoire 1
Daloa
Canary Islands 1 (Spain)
Las Palmas
Europe 19
Spain 7
Lleida
Barcelona
Hospitalet
Elche
Cartagena
Granada
Cadiz
Italy 4
Puglia
Palermo
Venice
Verona
France 3
Nice
Toulouse
Bordeaux
Scotland 1
Aberdeen
Portugal 1
A Coruna
Albania 1
Tirana
Russia 1
Saratov
Ukraine 1
Kharkiv
Asia 17
Japan 6
Kyoto
Osaka North
Osaka
Osaka Sakai
Kobe
Okayama
India 3
New Delhi
Hyderabad
Rajahmundry
Mongolia 2
Ulaanbaatar East
Ulaanbaatar West
Indonesia 2
Jakarta
Surakarta
Philippines 1
Puerto Princesa
Thailand 1
Ubon
Papua New Guinea 1
Daru
Bahrain 1
Manama
Oceania 12
New Zealand 5
Dunedin
Christchurch
Wellington
Porirua
Upper Hutt
Marshall Islands 2
Kwajalein
Majuro
Tasmania Australia 2
Devonport
Hobart
New Caledonia 1
Noumea
Pohnpei Micronesia 1
Panasang
Tahiti French Polynesia 1
Faaa Takaroa
North America 12
Canada 3
Prince George
Grande Prairie
Sudbury
Alaska 3
Fairbanks
North Pole
Juneau
Mexico 2
Delicias
Cabo San Lucas
Kansas 1
Garden City
Maine 1
Bangor
Jamaica 1
Kingston
Trinidad and Tobago 1
Port of Spain
Also found the "Houston Texas Bear Creek Stake - 2037963" has been recently renamed "Bridgeland Texas Stake - 2037963". Not sure when this occured?
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=30.007403,-95.946615&z=10&m=google.hybrid&layers=stakecenter&q=2037963&find=stake:2037963
Also "Houston Texas West Stake (Spanish) - 474274" has been renamed just "Houston Texas West Stake - 474274". Now with both English + Spanish speaking wards/branches.
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=29.877653,-95.614643&z=11&m=google.hybrid&layers=stakecenter&find=stake:474274
@Brian McConnell. The article was posted a few weeks ago by the author himself. I think it is being underestimated of just how quickly temples could be built if this method is perfected. The Helena Montana constructions picture certainly show a foundation that is built for a prefabricated building. We could look at several dozen a year being built and dedicated the following year. It would be quite a remarkable milestone in temple building and would forever change the amount of temples the church could build in a year. I am watching closely the construction of the Helena Temple.
What could the limitations be in the size or height of a modular temple?
The design and build time of the Gila Valley Temple makes me think elements of modular or prefabricated construction were trialled there.
Recently organized the 3491st Stake, "Saratoga Springs Utah Lake Mountain Stake - 2184036".
which includes the Harbor Bay, Hawks Landing 1st and 2nd, Lake Mountain 1st, 3rd and 4th, Pelican Bay and Spinnaker Bay Wards.
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=40.29492,-111.914599&z=14&m=google.hybrid&layers=stakecenter&find=stake:2184036
23 Oct 12, 2021 Saratoga Springs Utah Lake Mountain Stake
Good question, Chris. I've been wondering the same thing, about the height of a modular temple.
I do notice that both Helena and Casper are set to be only one story, 10,000 square feet, and that both are estimated to be completed in about 18 months. I don't remember, is there another temple that is likely be built through this faster method? Although Gila Valley, previously mentioned is a little bit bigger, it also appears to be only one story. So I guess time will tell if it can be used for a multiple-story edifice.
On another topic, I was looking at the estimates for completion of the temples listed on churchofjesuschristtemples.org. Based on current estimates, it looks like around 40 temples may be dedicated just in the next 3 years (if nothing interferes). That is not including any rededications, or the 2 that are about to take place this year.
We could have 14 just in 2022, more than double the number of any previous year besides 1999-2000! In fact, the figure of 40 by 2024 includes 7 just in the state of Utah! Seeing the accelerated pace (not as many as 1999-2001 but still very fast) is very exciting, considering that there have never been more than 2 temples dedicated in Utah in the same year. And the grand total in the whole state is currently 17, counting only those that are operational temples. The previous record for new temples dedicated in a short time in the state was 4 temples in 4 years in the mid-to-late 90s.
I only use Utah as an easy example to illustrate the faster pace we are seeing, I don't mean to suggest they deserve temples there more than the Saints in many other places. There will certainly be faster expansion in some other places too. As an example, Wyoming's first temple was only announced 10 years ago but soon it will have 3. And I think it could easily sustain 2 more, in Evanston and Cheyenne. Another great example is the Philippines, which is likely to go from 2 temples to 5 by 2024. Still needs more, especially on Luzon Island, but it's great to see so much progress for the Church in an area where my father was an early missionary.
Now we need to make sure we are keeping these temples busy, at least the one nearest to us.
Question: is anyone who comments on this blog still located more than 2 hours from your nearest temple? It would be nice to hear your various experiences with having to travel, I mean current or recent experiences. I am sure many of us can tell old stories about it, like when I had to travel 16 hours to reach the Washington DC temple from Maine.
Brian McConnell, thanks for bringing that article up again here. The modular design first tested in Helena Montana has since also been confirmed as being used on the Casper Wyoming Temple (which had a groundbreaking on Saturday) and the Elko Nevada Temple (which is identical in size and appearance to those other two temples; all three are 10,000 square feet). Above and beyond that, when the Church shared the four renderings for Latin American Temples, the last one, Torreon Mexico, had an identical exterior to the 3 US temples.
Consequently, with the designs of the 3 US temples using modular components, the Church tested how quickly that could hasten approvals, and it appears Torreon is the first temple outside the United States to use that design. If it too obtains swifter approval, then the Church will have tested that successfully outside the United States, which opens the prospect that all temples of that size could use the modular design.
An earlier article from the same author (who posted here about that as well) indicates that the Church is also using precast concrete panels in larger temples both within and outside of the United States. These panels already have the electrical, mechanical, and systemic components built into the panels, which will save time on larger temples. But my personal theory is that once the Church has tested the 10,000 square foot modular design in enough locations worldwide, those modular components could expand in size, to be used on projects around 25,000 square feet, or expanded further for even larger temples.
I don't consider it accidental that all of these advancemnets are occurring under President Nelson's inspired vision to expand the number of temples worldwide. He is definitely the prophet for our day.
Hello again, everyone! With Tuesday having came and went, there was no word regarding the customary temple reopening updates which have previously been shared by the Church each Tuesday. I assume that means that, while no temples are advancing to the next phase, there has not been a need to pause or downgrade any temples, and that no news is therefore good news. That being said, I do think we will see at least one (but possibly 2 or 3) major temple announcements throughout the rest of this week. My thanks once again to you all.
I realized I forgot to comment on the actual article, the 6 new temples that Matt analyzed above. He mentioned how many stakes will likely be served on most of these, but I want to give thanks for these new closer locations, and just mention how much closer these temples will be for the people in their districts.
Kaohsiung Taiwan - saves about 360 km trip, close to a 4 hour driving trip, for the stakes in Kaohsiung. Taichung is about halfway in between, but appears to be slightly closer to Taipei - about 2 hours either way. So I could see them being assigned to either temple.
Tacloban City - currently there is no temple on Leyte island, just to the east of Cebu. It appears to be about a 7 hour drive including the ferry ride, but there are also fairly inexpensive flights between Tacloban and Cebu - still for many very poor members this will make it much easier to experience the blessings of the temple on a more frequent basis.
Monrovia Liberia - the first one in this country, it is a 26 hour drive to their currently assigned temple in Accra Ghana, about 16 hours to Abidjan Cote d'Ivoire, where a temple is under construction and is likely be dedicated next year, and a drive about 8 hours to Freetown Sierra Leone which was previously announced. The only way to avoid these long trips is to fly, and this has to be out of reach for many members. (unless they get help from the fund which enables poor members to receive their own ordinances, which I only recently found out about)
Kananga DRC - is about an 18 hour drive to Kinshasa, or 20 hours to Lubumbashi, and let's keep in mind some of these roads may be dangerous. The Democratic Republic of the Congo is the 2nd largest country in Africa, after Algeria, and the 11th largest in the world, (larger than Greenland, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, or the state of Alaska) so things are farther apart on the map than we might assume without research. So having temples in all 3 of these locations now planned or operational will be an enormous blessing to these very faithful Saints. The Church is growing rapidly there and we could easily see several more temples announced in the next 10 years.
Antananarivo - I don't think I need to point out how far it is from Madagascar to South Africa - just having a temple on their own island will be an enormous blessing. The "cheap flights" I see listed on the search page don't look very affordable for most people on the island of the Lemurs, not to mention their neighbors in the islands nearby.
Culiacan Mexico - about an 8 hour drive to Hermosillo, where they are currently assigned. As pointed out by a previous commenter, this area can be very dangerous too. And it appears to be about the same for Torreon, where a temple was previously announced.
All of the 6 temples analyzed here have an enormous distance saving for the stakes and districts, the members of the Church and others that will be impacted by the presence of a House of the Lord. We are so blessed. I'm looking forward to seeing the next post, about the other 7 temples announced this month.
I would also suggest Phnom Phenomena, Cambodia as potentially using a modular design. Take away the five spires and the base floor plan looks like Helena to me, and the 10k square foot size matches up. I could see it being an excellent test for the viability of modular temples built in America and shipped overseas somehow.
Phnom Phen, Cambodia. Sorry, autocorrect fails again.
Also reported OPENED yesterday was the "Pakistan Service Mission - 2178133".
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=28.384684,74.481635&z=5&m=google.hybrid&layers=stakecenter,mission&q=Pakistan%20Service%20Mission&x=find&find=mission:2178133
Missions Opened
1 Jul 04, 2021 Tonga Outer Islands Mission
2 Aug 14, 2021 Mozambique Beira Mission
3 Oct 12, 2021 Pakistan Service Mission
And Matt has added here the 3492nd Stake "Wellington Sierra Leone Stake - 2175762", effective 10/10/2021.
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=8.441052,-13.163136&z=15&m=google.hybrid&layers=stakecenter&q=Wellington%20Sierra%20Leone%20Stake&find=stake:2175762
"Stakes and Districts Organized in 2021
Stakes
...
34. Saratoga Springs Utah Lake Mountain - Oct. 10th
35. Wellington Sierra Leone - October 10th, 2021"
Some temple quotes have came to mind lately. I know Brigham Young said thousands of temples will be on the earth, which Bednar repeated at some point. I always thought that would be during the Millennium. Also I remember Elder Haight saying some of us would see 200 temples and some of us would see 300 temples built. I always thought this statement to be awesome but would come to pass when I’m a lot older, like 60. I’m 38!! And we have 213 temples under construction or operating and 265 total temples in any stage. One other quote I read at the Idaho Falls Temple Visitors Center, is that “temples will dot this valley” when I first read that all there was the Idaho Falls Temple! Now temples are starting to dot that valley. Sorry I can’t give all the references to these quotes at this time.
On a different note If the prefab modular design works these smaller temples will be built at a fast pace, save money with exact same result and can be better quality and more precise. I used to work construction and when you can build something in a production facility without the elements, on and in perfect conditions the quality and precision is not only equal but may supersede normal construction practices. The brethren are finding ways to hasten the work in every way possible. The church is definitely trying fast track temples, it looks like pre work is going into some of them before even announcing certain temples. Could we start to see the brethren announce temples periodically throughout the year as things are ready instead of waiting at General conferences to announce them? Anyway it just goes to show the hastening continues and the Lords ways aren’t our ways.
EP, I don't have any confirmation that Phnom Penh Cambodia will be built with modular components. My gut feeling is that it won't be. I say that because some design elements might not be able to be done for more unique temples like Cambodia. Additionally, I'm not convinced that the government of Cambodia would approve an unconventional construction method like modular components. Traditional construction plans seem more likely to be approved in that city in direct comparison to the modular concept. I'd love it if the Church proved me wrong on that, but for now, that modular design doesn't appear feasible to me.
Searchthetruth, thanks for that insight regarding the potential quality of modular construction, that was something I have wondered about. A House of the Lord should be built to the highest standards possible, so I am glad to hear that it is at least possible that the modular construction is consistent with a high quality -- I hope time and experience with these new temples being built that way bear out that expectation.
A member of my ward works for an architectural firm that is contracted by the church to design temples. I asked him about how the decision is made between building temples with a strong local flavor (Tijuana, Richmond, and Bangalore are examples of this) versus building a temple that is more generic in design with a few minor variations on decorative motifs (Yigo, Kinshasa, Elko are examples of this). He said that when the architects can show the church that there is a strong local architectural tradition of designs for sacred spaces suitable for use in a temple, the church likes to go with that, whereas when there is either not a strong local tradition or it is not suitable for temple design, then they go with the more generic ones. There are of course other considerations that come into play as well, but apparently that is one of the important criteria for deciding whether to go local or generic in design.
Southern Nee Mexico is still over 3 hrs away from the Albuquerque temple. Even with Ciudad Juarez across the boarder, it is not feasible for most. Long lines at the boarder, safety issues, and others not allowed to cross. Some others, if they cross, won't be able to return afterwards. Those under these conditions in El Paso are over 4 hrs away from Albuquerque. It makes temple attendance infrequent for most and very hard for those with you g children. That's 6-8 hrs of driving, plus time in the temple, so a good 8-10 or more hours gone from home.
For modular temples, we don't have to wait for the foundation to be finished, or even started before the rest of the temple to be built. That included great time savings in construction. As stated above, I hear that often times modular buildings are built to higher standards. I also see that with these being built indoors in a facility as unknown said above that it may be better than building in the rain, wind, snow,or other weather. I often wonder how much it takes for a new temple or other building to get clean and prepped for flooring, decorating etc after wind and rain storms or other elements impacting the construction process.
Although not living there now, the Rapid City South Dakota stake is about 5 hours from Ft Collins, 4 hours from the upcoming Casper Wyoming Temple, about 5 hours from Billings Montana, and about 5 hours and 300 miles from its assigned temple in Bismarck North Dakota. Gillette Wyoming stake adjacent next door has similar 3 hour drives to Casper and Billings.
You could be right. Maybe just the same floor plan then.
A similar floor plan probably will be used for that same size temple. That being said, the recent release of the rendering for the Torreon Mexico Temple is identical in appearance to Helena Montana, Casper Wyoming, and Elko Nevada. That suggests Torreon is a test case for temples of that size to be used more widely outside the United States, especially in areas where the Church has a solid relationship with governmental/political leaders.
Hello again, everyone! Because no breaking temple developments have been reported in the last week or so, I was able to publish documents analyzing various aspects of General Conference on my blog yesterday. Then today, I was able to get my initial draft of predictions for the April 2022 General Conference worked out and published.
With my thanks again to Matt for allowing me to share such updates, you can find my 3 newest posts at the following web address:
https://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com/
Thanks again to you, Matt and to all of you who would be willing to read (and also comment, if you're so inclined) on the most recent updates.
@James, Thank you for the offer to review your April 2022 conference updates. Unfortunately, the link to "preliminary list" tells me access denied. That I have to request access from you. You have my email address. Can you grant access to the Google Docs file? Thank you, once again.
Hello, Christopher. It appears that when I created the April 2022 list of locations in which a temple could be announced, I forgot to grant access to anyone with the link. I was alerted to the issue at around the same time as your comment was posted here. Once I received that request from that other individual, I updated the permissions assosciated with that document so that anyone on the internet who clicks on the link can now view that document. My apologies for the oversight.
This is interesting but I wonder what the coordinates for the stake are? For example, my stake centre is 400 km from our nearest temple, but it is not mentioned on the list. Is the boundary line taken as the distance? If so, that is misleading. I live in the city with the most wards and branches in our stake, yet we are still 350 km from the temple. Of course if you take the stake boundary line closest to the temple, it is only 140 km away.
@Mikeepstewart, may I inquire about what city you are referring to in your question? I'm not sure what City and Temple you are referring to with the 400 km drive from Stake Center?
Hey, Chris. My failure to remove Fort Worth was the second mistake noted on the new list. I had apparently also left Heber Valley Utah on there. I have made that correction, switching my "picks" for Texas to Austin/El Paso. As far as your question about the reasoning for removing the Mexico and Preston picks, I can lay out my reasoning for both. After the April General Conference this year, I got some feedback from Bryan Dorman, my Church member contact in Mexico, which indicated that Culican was now the next most likely possibility, and that Durango would actually be closer to a temple once Puebla, Queretaro, and Torreon were further along. He also let me know that with those three announced, Culiacan was more likely to be the next Mexican city to have a temple announced. So I made that switch to Culiacan just before the October General Conference. And Bryan's assessment about Durango being less imminently likely than Culiacan proved to be correct, since Culiacan was the one temple pick for Mexico during the most recent General Conference.
I have not heard anything further from Bryan since the temple in Culiacan was announced, so I'm assuming that Durango is less imminently likely than the 3 candidates on my list currently. I've found that feedback from others has proven to be prophetic when it comes to certain locations. Just as a general note, any new locations on my list this time around that might not have been there for my April and October lists this year have been added courtesy of some feedback I received on my blog from Steven Cuff, who has also commented here. Based on his suggestions, I ran quick searches on those prospects, and found that most of them had been excluded from consideration by me before then. When my research verified the merits of most of the locations he mentioned, I added them to my list for the first time.
So that leads me to your question on my rationale for removing Preston Idaho from my list. I had prioritized Preston Idaho over Smithfield Utah, and the Lord proved me wrong when Smithfield was the Utah pick in April of this year. I ran calculations on the distances between Preston and Smithfield, and the two cities are 17.79 miles apart, roughly equivalent to 20 miles driving distance.
Above and beyond that, Preston falls under the boundaries of the Utah Area of the Church (as does Evanston Wyoming), so there are definitely cities here in the Utah Area where a temple is more urgent, since Smithfield can serve the needs of the Saints in Preston for the time being.
In general, President Nelson has had a method of closing some of the more outstanding distances between two Utah temples, but I'm not convinced that Preston would be given priority over the other cities in the Utah Area that are on my list. It seems likelier to me that a temple for Preston might be announced only after we see temples announced for at least half of the Utah Area cities on my list currently, which is why I downgraded that to one of my other two lists for now.
But if current trends of Nelsonian announcements continue as they have, I could see a need to reinclude Preston perhaps by April or October 2023, though that could be pushed up depending on what is or is not announced for the Utah Area between now and then.
On an unrelated note, my April 2022 General Conference predictions includes a look at what the 2021 year-end statistical numbers might shape up to be. So the only reason I didn't comment on your mention of the three new missions was because I shifted my focus to accounting for those created missions in the data I provided for the statistical report. Unless I am mistaken, that brings the total number of missions worldwide to 408. And I'm grateful so much of the world seems to be bouncing back from COVID-19. It gives me hope that regular creation of new missions might return to normal next year. Sorry I didn't weigh in sooner.
I would take it either from the stake center, or from the main point where most units are. It is easier where you have fairly concentrated stakes. Harder in areas where stakes are trying to cover all the land.
In places like Nigeria and Ivory Coast it will be easier to track outlier stakes than in France and Germany.
I am unconvinced that Mbuji-Mayi will get DR Congo's 4th temple. It is just over 100 miles from Kananga. I would expect either Kinshasa to get a 2nd temple, or some other region of DR Congo to get a temple first. I know there are not really stakes yet in any other region, but I am expecting g Matabi to get a stake soon.
I expect if they do build a west Phoenix metro temple it will be good sized. Unless more stakes could be assigned than the 6 mentioned I think it will be after a Queen Creek Temple.
The big question is will the Church build a temple based on population move in that has not occurred? That may slightly have happened with Oquirrh Mountain, but the general population was there are Jordan Rivers was bursting at the seems. The nearest neighbors of Oquirrh Mountain may not have been in place, but you had a need.
I can see a west Phoenix Metro Temple, but don't really expect it to be announced until there are at least 2 more stakes created in the Phoenix Temple district.
In the late 1980s several temples went from announcement to dedication in under 18 months.
Detroit was announced in August 1998 and dedicated in October 1999. This is not a record.
7 hour one way travel is insane. Any idea how regularly the ferry goes?
JPL, I know this has been mentioned in the past, but when those of us reading your comments here are doing so on a desktop, laptop, or tablet, it’s not clear to whom you are addressing each of your comments. I know I had a problem with that a few years ago when I’d post replies.
As a result, I’ve tried to be more intentional about mentioning to whom I’m addressing my comments, because on a desktop or tablet, that makes it easier for people to connect the dots as far as knowing to whom any comments or replies are directed.
On my blog, I use a collapsed comment feature that always allows individuals to directly reply to any comment on those threads. Regardless of the device used, that allows readers of my blog on any device to see who is responding to what.
That being said, since you weren’t specific in directing your latest comments to the person you’re replying to, I am assuming that your comment about the DR Congo was directed to me., since Mbuji-Mayi was specifically on my list even after the Kananga DR Congo Temple was announced.
So in response to your suggestion that a second temple was more likely in Kinshasa, I’m not convinced you are correct on that. With the exception of the United States, second temples have only been announced thus far for the capital cities in the Philippines and in various portions of Latin America.
A precedent has not yet been set for second temples in capital cities of African nations, and if and when that happens, I’d be more inclined to anticipate second temples in the capital cities of Ghana, Nigeria, and South Africa, where the Church has been established for quite a bit longer than it has in the DR Congo or the Ivory Coast.
Further, JPL, as we’ve observed, in Africa particularly, President Nelson has focused more on closing existing gaps on that continent than he has on announcing second temples for any African nations thus far. Above and beyond that, it also might not have occurred to you, but the Church has thus far only announced second temples in capital cities in Latin America and the Philippines roughly 25-30 years minimum after the first temples in those cities were announced.
Above and beyond the fact that there is no current precedent for second temples in African capital cities, President Nelson has seemed to focus more on announcing second temples in areas where the Church has been well established and strong for at least 2 decades between the announcement of the first and second capital city temples. Kinshasa doesn’t come to mind based on those parameters.
But there has been a precedent for the prophet to announce temples where there has been a significant gap in temple districts. I would love to be proven wrong in my assessment here, but if you go back and look at where second temples have been announced in capital cities, there is a trend towards holding off on second temples in any nation for at least 2-3 decades, but sometimes more.
With that in mind, JPL, let’s look at the second Lima temple. As you can verify in the following link, the Lima Peru Los Olivos Temple was announced in the 30th anniversary year of the Lima Peru Temple:
https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/lima-peru-los-olivos-temple/
The Alabang Philippines Temple was announced in the 33rd anniversary year for the Manila temple:
https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/alabang-philippines-temple/
The Greater Guatemala City Guatemala Temple was announced in the 36th anniversary year of the Guatemala City Guatemala Temple:
https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/greater-guatemala-city-guatemala-temple/
For the Sao Paulo East Brazil Temple, it will be the third to serve that region of Brazil. The first temple was dedicated in Sao Paulo in 1978, with the Campinas Brazil Temple dedicated roughly 24 years later. The announcement of the third temple to serve the Sao Paulo region was made 42 years after Sao Paulo was dedicated, and 18 years following the dedication of the Campinas Brazil Temple:
https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/sao-paulo-brazil-east-temple/
And earlier this month, in General Conference, President Nelson’s announcement of a second temple for the Santiago Chile area was made in the 38th anniversary year of the dedication of the Santiago Chile Temple:
https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/santiago-chile-west-temple/
I apologize if I’m droning on too long here, JPL, but I can’t see how you came to the conclusion that a second temple for Kinshasa is more immient than the idea of a temple in Mbuji-May, and that is particularly true based on the fact that there is no current precedent for an African capital city to have a second temple. Yes, the mileage is only around 100 between Kanaga and Mbuji-Mayi, but it’s that distance both there and back, or a 200-mile round trip.
And President Nelson has focused on announcing temples where inordinate distances there and back have constituted an undue hardship, so I think Mbuji-Mayi will have a temple announced before a second in Kinshasa is even on the horizon. And it’s also my feeling, based on the data I’ve presented here, that second temples are more likely to first be announced for African strongholds of the Church like South Africa, Ghana, and Nigeria before even considering the prospect of second temples for the capital cities in the Ivory Coast and DR Congo.
That being said, JPL, not knowing what rationale led you to the conclusion that a second Kinshasa temple was more imminently likely than a temple being announced in Mbuji-Mayi, I would welcome any inclination you have to further explain your reasoning on this matter.
I hope the length and tone of this comment is taken as sincere, because I mean it sincerely. I want to understand your reasoning. I’ve now explained why second temples in African capital cities seem less likely for the near future, based on the patterns of second temples we have seen elsewhere, and why I believe that Kinshasa will not be the first African capital city to have a second temple announced.
So I’d welcome any response from you about your reasoning to ensure we are understanding one another correctly. Thanks for taking time to read (and respond to) these latest comments from me here, JPL. I look forward to further discussion with you about why you believe that the DR Congo will be the first African nation to have a second temple in its' capital city. Thanks again.
Kampala and Brazzaville Will be built First. And others in these 3 countries where church is more strong
I agree that Kampala and Brazzaville are more likely than Kinshasa 2nd, although inspiration could prove us all wrong. I have no idea how well the Kinshasa temple is being utilized by the members in the nearby stakes.
I would also think that when a second temple is built in the central region of DRC, Mwene Ditu is more likely than Mbuji-Mayi. It is more distant from Kananga (Google Maps shows it almost a 6 hour drive, which goes East through Mbuji-Mayi rather than the shorter southeast direction, probably a better road) and including Luputa there are 2 stakes there rather than 1. But time will tell.
2 other locations I am thinking about in DRC are Likasi, which has 2 stakes and is located 2 hours NW of Lubumbashi, and probably further out in time, Matadi, which is currently a district but shows 6 branches on Cumorah.com, it's over 6 hours SW of Kinshasa. There are also a handful of branches in the north (mainly in Kisangani, 3 branches) and east - 2 branches directly near the border with Burundi - those will be locations we can watch where we might expect to see stakes created in the coming years, as the Church continues to grow in these areas.
Locations that would be good candidates for temples in the countries where the Church has been located longer include East London, South Africa; Cape Coast, Ghana; and Abuja and Ibadan, Nigeria, also a 2nd one in the southeast area near Aba. Possibly a 2nd temple in Cote d'Ivoire also. Togo and Benin now each have 2 stakes, also possible. However, I certainly think there is a lot of potential for new locations in the DRC considering the size of the country.
I'd put the next Arizona temple in Tempe
I am part of the Vernon BC Stake.
The next temple in Arizona will either be in Flagstaff, Prescott or Queen Creek. Tempe is too close to the Mesa Temple to get its own temple.
Mikepstewart, I just heard that the Nelson, BC Branch was closed. I see that the population of Nelson area is close to 50,000, and it's surprising that that many residents can't support a branch, let alone a ward. Do you have any explanantion for that? Thanks.
I don't think Tempe is too close. Other temples a around the country and the world are begining to be built just a few miles apart. We are already seeing more multiple temples built in the same city or metro-areas. Not just in the Latter-Day Saint corridor. (Texas, Chile, Brazil, Peru, and the Philippines, are states or countries outside of Utah, Idaho, and Arizona that are examples.
I don't see anything warranting a Tempe Temple in the near future. But who knows? Downtown Tempe is 7.5 miles from the Mesa Temple. That's closer than several stakes in Mesa located within the temple district. Those temples you cited in Texas, Chile, etc. are all much smaller temples than Mesa and were servicing as much if not more stakes than Mesa is. Lima serves 66 stakes and is under 10,000 square feet. Santiago served 50 stakes with 20k square feet. Mesa serves 29 stakes and is a Utah-sized temple of over 100k square feet. We'll see how attendance is after it reopens.
BUT - after looking at the stakes around Tempe, the idea is not all far fetched. A Tempe Temple would serve about 8-10 stakes. So would a Queen Creek Temple. So my take is if Queen Creek gets a temple, look out for a Tempe Temple not too long after.
Hmm, 6 of the temples President Nelson has announced on the African continent were in countries already with a temple. He has only technically announced 3 temples in countries on the African continent that do not yet have a temple. Although Antanarivo, Madagascar are Praia, Cape Verde normally get counted in African Temples. So by any measure the majority of temples President Nelson has announced on the African continent were in countries with temples.
If we look at Mainland Asia President Nelson has announced 4 or 5 temples in countries with no temples in then, depending on how you count things. Oceania by most counts has seem 5 temples announced in countries or territories without them, and 2 in countries with them. Insular Asia is by most counts 6 temples announced in countries with them, and either none or 1 in countries without them. I am feeling Singapore should be considered mainland Asia, but I am not sure people will agree. Basically only Indonesia, East Timor and Sri Lanka exist without temples in insular Asia.
Easy, there are more stakes in Kinshasa than in the whole greater Kasai region, about twice as many stakes.
I would think Brazzaville would predate Kinshasa 2 only if border crossing is difficult.
Trmpe is no closer to Mesa than Ephraim is to Manti. The student access issue looms much larger in the Tempe calculus than the Mesa one.
That at least is my main thought about what would lead to a Tempe Temple.
Lima serves 66 stakes? That is insane. This is why more temples for Peru are constantly predicted. I am thinking Iquitos. Still Lima has over 40 stakes in the city. A 3rd temple for the city is a possibility.
The biggest draw for a Tempe Temple would be its use by ASU students. It is only 8.77 miles from ASU to the Mesa Temple though. That is a long way without a car though. Another thought might be adjacent to campus would make it convenient to use for some students who live closer to other temples.
I am not really sure how doable this would be.
It would be interesting to determine what the planned optimal Temple Square foot per stake was. However I am not sure this would be the best formula. The factors in placing temples are driven by a lot of considerations.
I don't think the comparison to Ephraim/Manti really applies to Tempe/Mesa. Ephraim/Manti is in the heart of Mormonville. Tempe is less so, even though Mesa has a large Mormon presence. If I'm not mistaken, Ephraim was announced because the Church decided against a renovation of the Manti Temple that would make the temple more accessible to elderly patrons because it would require tearing out several historical murals.
Also, I believe there's a metro-line that runs from ASU into Mesa which would make the Mesa Temple accessible to ASU students.
But I said previously, if the Church announces a temple for Queen Creek, it could feasibly announce a temple for Tempe as they would both serve about the same amount of stakes. Both would depend on how busy Gilbert and Mesa Temples are operating.
Waiting (im)patiently for Part 2!
JPL, I have a lengthy reply to your comments above, which I am including in full to leave no stone unturned in comparing your assertions with my research. So firstly. with all due respect to you and your opinions, it appears you are overlooking some crucial factors in your analysis that Kinshasa 2 is more likely than Brazzaville. First, if you peruse the various times Matt has posted his analysis on the top ten nations without a temple in any phase, you'd know that the Republic of the Congo first made that top ten list in April of last year (when it was ranked ninth, and was moved up to.) Fast forward to April of this year, and Matt's list at that time noted that it was then rakned seventh.
With the temples that were announced earlier this month, the data I have (assuming that it is correct) appears to indicate that the Republic of the Congo is now ranked fourth on that list. We have seen President Nelson announce templesw to fill existing gaps before he even thinks about second temples in the capital or major cities elsewhere in the world. As I have mentioned a few different times in the last several threads,JPL, President Nelson seems to be announcing temples in 1-3 of the nations on Matt's top ten list. Even assuming that President Nelson is on the low end of that (1 per each General Conference), if the nations currently ranked as the first, second, and thid (which are Uganda, Mongolia, and Malaysia), then we'd be looking at the Republic of the Congo for a temple in the fourth General Conference from now (which would be October 2023). But if the higher end occurs (3 temples on the top ten), I'd put the Republic of the Congo as likely to move up to the first position on that list within the next 1-2 General Conferences.
Continuing my sermon to JPL, let's now look at your other argument about Kinshasa being more likely to have a second temple announced before a temple is announced in the Congo. First problem I have with that line of reasoning is that you appear to be picking and choosing a second temple for Kinshasa over second temples in Jo=burg SA, Aba Nigeria, and Accra Ghana. For your argument to be feasible and accurate (that Kinshasa is more likely to be the first African capital city that will get a second temple announced), you have mentioned the metric of comparison in the number of stakes in Kinshasa vs. the number of stakes in the Congo. By your argument, Kinshasa is more likely because it has more stakes.
If your argument about the total number of stakes is to hold up as you suggest it will, JPL, then that argument also needs to be used in relation to the number of stakes in Jo-burg, Aba, Accra, and the number of stakes operating near those cities. So let's look at those numbers. The Kinshasa DR Congo Temple district shows that 10 stakes are based in Kinshasa, and it's likely that at least 5 neighboring stakes, but perhaps more, can also be considered in our statistical calculations. So let's hypothesize, for the sake of your argument, that 15 stakes serve Kinshasa and surrounding areas.
So far JPL,, hypothetical count for 15 is the highest (and only) number we've looked at, let's now look at Johannesburg. The temple district in that city will be broken up at least a little once the temples in Harare Zimbabwe, Nairobi Kenya, and Antananarivo (again, you've misspelled that as Antanarivo, which is not correct), So, as a result, I will be confining my count to the number of stakes in cities that are closest to Jo-burg, per the temple district for that city. If I have calculated correctly, that includes the Bedfordview, Bellville, Benoni, Bloemfontein, Cape Town (until the psdortemple in that city is dedicated), Centurion, Johannesburg, Mabopane, Pretoria, Roodepoort, Soweto, and Springs Stakes and the George Klerksdorp, Mbompela, Phuthaditjhaba, Polokowane, South Africa districts.
More in reply to JPL: Unless I have miscounted, that works out to 12 stakes and 4 districts. If we assume that there are an average of 7 wards per each of those stakes, and 3 branches in each district, that’s 84 wards and 12 districts. Any temple serving around 100 congregations is likely to have a district split. While I believe the next South African Temple will be announced in Pretoria, even that would not preclude the idea of a second temple for J-burg.
And if a second Kinshasa temple is more likely or imminent than one in J-burg, in your opinion, let’s move on to discuss why you overlooked second temples in Aba and Accra, where the Church is more fully established. There are enough Aba Nigeria and Accra Ghana stakes on their own that we wouldn’t need to consider the immediately-surrounding cities.
I would accept an argument that indicated that temples in Cape Coast Ghana and Lagos and Benin City Nigeria would break up those temple districts nicely, but rather than advocate for that position, you have indicated that Kinshasa 2 is more likely than Aba, Accra, or J-burg 2.
With that in mind, Ghana’s capital city has 8 stakes, and it seems likely that 7 others would be in closer proximity to a second Accra temple than they are to the current Accra temple. That’s again a total of 15, and the number of wards and branches across those 15 cities would likely be another high double-digit number exceeding the total number of congregations in DR Congo.
The same is true for Aba, with only 4 stakes in that capital city,, and at least another 12 in neighboring locales, meaning that the total number of congregations in Nigeria is likely higher than it ever has been in Kinshasa.
Continuing my reply to JPL: In order to ensure that no one thinks I’m fudging the numbers here to support my own opinions, I also took a look at the total number of congregations in DR Congo vs. Cote d’Ivoire vs. NIgeria vs. Ghana vs. South Africa. At the last currently-available statistical update, DR Congo was noted to have 68.871 members and a total of 211 congregations:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/facts-and-statistics/country/democratic-republic-of-the-congo
Côte d’Ivoire had 52,241 members and 250 congregations at the last updated report:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/facts-and-statistics/country/cote-d-ivoire
By contrast, Ghana had 85,139 members at the last update, with a total of 328 congregations:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/facts-and-statistics/country/ghana
And Nigeria has 192,144 members in 772 congregations:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/facts-and-statistics/country/nigeria
Meanwhile, South Africa has 68,772 members in 193 congregations:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/facts-and-statistics/country/south-africa
As I stated earlier,JPL, it appears as though you want to pick and choose which criteria you use in your assessment. If the Republic of the Congo temple being ranked fourth on the top ten list doesn’t sway you, then if we go by the number of stakes in Ghana, Nigeria, and South Africa, the fact that these three nations are served by only Johannesburg, Accra, and Aba at present means that there is a higher per capita ratio of Church members in each of the 3 nations in areas in these three nations where temple districts.
Let me be clear on something else: You may choose to pick and choose any criteria you like when weighing in here. That’s the freedom of expression protected by the Constitution, and on one in their right minds would argue with that. But if you are not applying the same criteria for the Republic of the Congo that has been pointed out to you, if you fail to consider South Africa, Ghana, and Nigeria under those same parameters, your analysis will fall short, and you will in due course, more likely than not, be proven incorrect.
That being said, I have twice come to this discussion with you with facts, figures, data, and truth, while you seem unmotivated to even consider any thoughts about African temples that do not match your own. Having now proven the fault in your chosen line of reasoning (if the number of stakes or members is the chief metric in South Africa, Nigeria, and Ghana are all much higher that the number of stakes or members in the DR Congo in general, and that is even more true when consindering second temples for Jo-burg, Aba, and Accra before a second Kinshasa temple is announced.
Having laid out solid evidence to support why I don’t believe Kinshasa would be given second-temple priority over Jo-burg, Aba, and Accra, if you expect any of us to change and agree with your opinion, I am personally going to need a thorough explanation (based on actual sources rather than personal whims or preferences) in order to understand where you are coming from. Pick an argument you want to retain, find evidence to support that, and share it with your analysis in reply to these recent comments from me. Until I see something like that from you, I remain convinced that the information I have found and shared herein in my latest comments. I mean no offense by any of this, JPL, and I hope none is taken. If you want us to see your side of this argument, you’d be well-advised to have actual facts to confirm that. Thanks for wading through this subsequent sermon. I am off my soapbox now.
Since this Nelson has noticed a change in the way of leading the Church, it is noted that this presidency wants to make profound changes in the administration.
What I liked most about the Nelson era is that many temples have been announced, it is logical, that there is enough money to be able to have more than 400 temples, without a doubt, to the extent that the Prophet considers, based on the planning that exists in the Church, that new temples should be announced and built in more countries will see blessings.
Hopefully this will stimulate the baptized to work on their own genealogy, and also to open family history centers, since they are still closed and bureaucratic, the Church is required to make an effort to open family history centers.
It is a blessing to see temples advertised so far away in the world, there is much work to be done.
James, some of the facts that you claim to want presented about temple plans go out the window when the Lord Jesus Christ is involved. Sometimes intuition or the Spirit of Elijah move hearts and minds quicker and more effective than anything else.
The facts are, you may be right in all your plans or analysis, but at the end of the day there are many factors that cannot be accounted for factually, logically, or rationally.
But the Gospel of the Great Jehovah is still ultimately true. That is the best fact I can hold on to.
Wisconsin and West Virginia still need temples. And South Dakota, too, right? The last U.S. western hold out.
Kansas also- it is in the same tier of states as South Dakota. Some consider western US to be west of the Mississippi, which would include Iowa also.
Eduardo, you are correct in your response to my comment. We have first-hand accounts regarding how the prophet responded to late night inspiration on the Friday before the conference weekend got underway, when the Lord inspired him to announce a temple in India. Further, when the Manti/Ephraim arrangements were announced, Elder Rasband and Bishop Waddell described being involved in those discussions as the Church going "into warp speed' on that Those types of things are on a case-by-case basis. Thank you for that observation.
Yes, North Dakota, Iowa, and Kansas are located west of the Mississippi River, which give them K designations for TV and radio instead of W in the east. I suppose Iowa may have the biggest reason for a temple, but geography would dictate each would have reasons to have their own.
Despite rural losses of people in the plains states, great to see the Church still growing there.
Eduardo, one other thing I wanted to observe, if I might. The issue that I raised in my responses to JPL was to ascertain what evidence he has that the DR Congo would be the first African nation in which its' capital would get a second temple. That is why I laid out the history of longstanding places where the Church is well-established: South Africa, Nigeria, and Ghana all have decades of rich histories. South Africa was first dedicated for the preaching of the gospel in 1853; with Nigeria dedicated December of 1962; and Ghana following in 1983.
My point is that, while inspiration and relevation are the wild cards here, it has been a pretty consistent trend for the Church to not announce second temples in capital cities. And when that process does start, with South Africa dedicated first, followed by Ngeria and Ghana, it would be a clear nod to the Church's history in those areas. I had also observed to JPL that all of the Latin American nations with second temples have had those prospects announced between the 30-40th anniversaries of the establishment of the gospel. That strikes me as more than a trend: it could be a possible precedent.
For the purposes of this discussion, it may interest you, Eduardo, JPL, and anyone else reading this comment to know that the DR Congo was not dedicated for the preaching of the gospel until 1987. And the Church has paid very careful attention to the history of the Church in each nation. With that in mind, yes, the Lord could and has inspired different things in different scenarios that don't seem to work on paper (like the small temple that will serve Vitoria Brazil, which I didn't see on any list prior to that announcement).
We have seen just recently that the Church announced a major renovation of the Provo Utah Temple once the one in Orem is finished. And within the last year, the Taylorsville and Red Clfifs Utah Temples began construction after St. George was closed for renovation. We have talked in these threads about how the Church is being smart in terms of not closing Provo for reconstruction before the Orem temple is dedicated.
By extension, the Lima Peru and Manila Philippines Temples might be renovated (expanded?) once the Los Olivos and Alabang temples are dedicated. I hadn't realized when I began sharing the history here that the dedication of that nation had been done before 1860, but it makes sense. In the meantime, in his comment, JPL first suggested a second temple for the DR Congo was more imminent than second temples anywhere else. I have asked twice (three times?) for comments from him giving further context into why he believes that the DR Congo is more worthy of a second temple than South Africa, Ghana, and Nigeria, where the Church has had a considerably longer period of existing there.
I am willing to give JPL the benefit of the doubt, but the fact that he has not commented on any of my subsequent comments here, and has not taken time to further ecplain his reasoning does make it difficult to judge whether the criteria he used to come to that conclusion is correct. I fully recognize that I might have been discourteous in some of my recent responses to JPL, and I fully believe several African capital will have second temples announced in due course, but I don't agree and don't understand why JPL has offered the opinion that the DR Congo capital will have a second temple before areas where the Church has been more firmly established for a longer period of time, especially in cases like Jo-burg, Accra, and Aba, each of which might undergo some degree of renovation (and perhaps even expansion) once second temples are in operation in each of these capital cities.
By contrast, JPL prioritizes Kinshasa over anywhere else, and hasn't once explained the reasonoing behind his assertion about Kinshasa. It is impossible for any of us to accurately analyze a prospect like that if we don't know how he came to that conclusion. In all my comments to JPL, I provided sources verifying my opinion that Aba, Accra, and Jo-burg would be the priority above Kinshasa, and we still have heard nothing else from him here. Because we don't know what his argument is, I've had to take a different tack in my responses to him, which is why I focused on why, in my opinion, Kinshasa won't be in line to get a second temple in its' capital city for the next several decades at least.
I seem to also recall him failing to reply the last time or two when one of his "wild-theory" statements were offered. JPL has previously made similar suggestions like this, and in the ensuing conversations, he hasn't done much to clarify his positions. So I don't have any information about his reasoning now, and I hope when he reads this lattest comment he can offer the requested clarification. Asking for evidence supporting statements made by readers shouldn't result in radio silence. If JPL still thinks his stance has merit, I'd welcome the opportunity to address it.
As it is, however, although inspiration can and has proven us wrong in the past (I am thinking specifically of the first temples being announced in India, Russia, Shanghai PRC, and Dubai UAE), inspiration and reserach have also justified many of our chosen locations. We also couldn't have known when President Nelson became prophet that precast concrete panels and modular temples would become a thing, and both advancements have sped up temple construction. JPL, I'd love to hear more from you about why you believe a second temple in Kinshasa is more imminent than second ones in Johannesburg, Aba, and Accra.
I for one am personally just as pleased whether or not the Lord proves any of my theorized locations are on the list of those that get a temple announced every six months. And part of my process this time around involves picking others' brains about their lists. If JPL has a good reason to suggest a second Kinshasa temple is more imminent than second temples in Aba, Accra, and Johannesburg, I'd love to hear more about why he thinks that. But until he does, I am basically shooting in the dark to try and figure out the reasoning involved, while also being called out by you, Eduardo, for not admintting that revelation and inspiration trumps mortal reasoning. But my point is that sometimes, and perhaps even more often than not, it is a combination of mortal reasoning and taking things to the Lord that yields the best result. I hope we can have a good discussion about JPL's theory, but that will be up to him, and unless and until he shares anything in that respect, we're basically left to our devices in responding to him. That being said, Eduardo, I do not bear you any ill will for calling me out on revelation trumping earthly reasoning. It's an important point that is very well taken, but in the absence of sourcing and an explanation from JPL about the immminence of Kinshasa vs. the other African capital cities leaves me only the capacity to respond to what I believe his reasoning is, which is why I have likely fallen short. My thanks once again to you all.
I would also like to add that I personally believe that God operates on principles of wisdom, knowledge, and intelligence. That being said, I believe that when "revelation" dictates that we build temples rather than statistics, it is only based upon numbers hidden from either our view or knowledge, but are known to God.
In any case, I guess I'm just saying pointing out faulty or baseless claims and contending with them shouldn't be frowned upon, but rather necessary that only the best ideas and theories subsist. If wildcards become reality, then they were never wildcards to begin with, but rather we just were not aware of information that would clearly point them out as likely candidates
You are extremely rude. I see no reason to speak with someone who constantly tries to find fault with anything I post.
I do not appreciate being attacked so often.
I am tired of how I get treated by James.
We have been asked to stop referring to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints incorrectly with the names of deceased prophets.
Stop giving sermons to people. That is not your place nor your responsibility. Your method of berating people for sa
Haring their thoughts is very annoying. Your attacking them for not responding to your walls of text in a quick manner is even more rude.
What I actually said was that I thought a 2nd temple would come to Kinshasa before a temple was announced for Mbuji-Maye.
I did not analyze wheher a 2nd temple was more likely in Abijan, Accra or Kinshasa.
A 2nd temple in Aba itself seems unlikely. However I have regularly expressed the view that more temples will be announced for the south south 9f Nigeria where Aba is. Somewhere in Akwa Ibom state or Porr Harcourt or even more likely both seem to be most likely.
In Ghana Cape Coast seems the highest contender for the next temple.
You are wrong. South Africa has 2 temples. There is a temple in Durban.
You are very offensive and rude and I do not at all appreciate how you harp on a point and try to show another person wrong.
You are just plain rude and inconsiderate.
Theories of temple access general place real travel time and real travel cost as the top 2 issues. So unless there are real problems that make it difficult to travel from Brazzaville to Kinshasa, Brazzaville is not a very high contender for a temple because it is close to Kinshasa.
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