Part of me wonders if the declines of stakes and congregations in some areas of the US will be met with growth in other areas. For example, your letter states that Michigan has been losing congregations for a while, but so has the population of Michigan as a whole. It would be interesting to see if the growth in Florida, Texas, Tennessee, and Arizona of the church would mirror the population growth in each respective area as a whole.
Great report, Matt! Thanks for your ongoing diligent efforts and attention to such developments. In the last several days, I've taken time to look back on where the Church was in certain aspects in 2017 and 2018 vs. where it is now, and I can see why President Nelson has said that the work is moving forward at an accelerated pace. I can't wait to see what's next!
I have not been able to substantiate this report, but it was rumored that the Czech Slovak mission was goosed out on baptisms for the entire year of 2021. If true, this is the first time that I have ever heard of a mission getting blanked for an entire calendar year.
But I have also heard of other missions baptizing quite a few more people recently, mostly in Africa and Latin America. Turkey added another congregation last year; the Antalya branch.
Michigan lost lots of congregations in the 2008-2012 time frame. Sine then the number has remained fairly stable. If there has been any loss since 2013 it has been in the rural northern parts of the state. They have also been small branches.
My branch is consistently getting over 80 people. We just got a new Melchizedek priesthood holder and are about to get another one.
We are almost at the level where we might have a prospect to be made a ward.
The Palmer Park branch has returned to meeting in Detroit. They are meeting in a leased building. Hopefully soon plans will be put in place to upgrade then to a church-built building and being a ward.
If Belle Isle and Palmer Park could reach ward status, we would be on path to getting another stake in metro Detroit.
This might be a long term goal. Another hope is Southfield Ward might be divisible now that it has its own building.
We now have 'My Covenant Path', related to the New and Returning Members form for leaders and the new member.
They started work on this in 2019 and tested it in the North America Central Area or at least some parts of it.
Leaders have access to training videos and other resources, the big reason for all of it is the facts I was able to discover:
67 percent of newly baptized members are active after a year 32 percent of newly baptized members are active after 2 years And only 10 percent of members are still active after 10 years.
It is obvious they needed to do something, they are hoping this will somewhat better these numbers. We will still have some that don't stay active but they are looking for substantial improvement anyway.
An article written and published in local pages sent with the Liahona to some parts of Africaa;
The 10 year activity rate among converts is lower than I would have expected -- based on what I have seen, I would have guessed more like 20-25%. I wonder if the church has explored possible relationships between low retention and member missionary work. It is not hard to imagine that many members who share the gospel with friends who then are baptized only to watch them later distance themselves from the church become discouraged and reluctant to share the gospel with other friends.
Could be overall, and not just US numbers, which in some areas are better. It was mentioned in priesthood session of general conference in October 2013 that in Osaka, Japan, the number on home teaching percentage was like 7 percent.
The focus of this new program also does include ministering, both by the new member an to the new member. Not sure what else although family history has been shown in other settings to play a crucial role, that is already on the new and returning member form.
Field Engineer responsibilities typically include handling maintaining, monitoring, installing and providing support for network hardware, software and communication links.
Matt, the comment from James Williams between the two most recent ones from Christopher Duerig may be spam. I'm not sure, so I'd defer to your judgement on that. Thanks gain.
Jim Anderson - Do you have a specific reference for the videos where those convert retention statistics were reported? I would love to see these if possible.
In a recent years local training, the point was made that the difference between someone staying active or not was whether they were able to have their own witness from the spirit, and that by preparing the converts to go to the temple to perform baptisms for their own ancestors as soon as they themselves were baptized, was the critical key. Basically spend more time preparing the individuals before baptism so that they can go to the temple immediately upon being baptized and then receive the endowment at 1 year in (as age appropriate).
Don't have the video but it was a stake conference in WA state, those go often very soon after they are broadcast but they usually only are up a few days but some do stay up longer.
It is known that if a member has attended the temple soon after baptism, and preferably with their own ancestral names, that many more stay active than otherwise would. They found this out in Sacramento over 20 years ago where they emphasized the temple. Sacramento got its own temple soon after.
actually and sadly 2020 was the smallest growth since the 1857 2021 was only slighly better . worse Still are the lowest retention rates among the youth of the church. true most churches have it worse but frankly the future growth of the church outside of Africa looks bleak.
While helping converts attend the temple is important, one thing never discussed or examined is how church culture or dysfunctional ward dynamics deter new members from staying.
Leaders like to focus on doctrine as the cure all, but it's really the social aspect that makes all the difference.
Well said. The social aspect is one of the 3 things President Hinckley mentioned when he spoke about retaining converts.
“Every Convert Is Precious” Insight and counsel from President Gordon B. Hinckley
Every convert needs “a friend, a responsibility, and nurturing with ‘the good word of God.’”
It is not an easy thing to become a member of this Church. In most cases it involves setting aside old habits, leaving old friends and associations, and stepping into a new society which is different and somewhat demanding.
“With the ever-increasing number of converts, we must make an increasingly substantial effort to assist them as they find their way. Every one of them needs three things: a friend, a responsibility, and nurturing with ‘the good word of God’ (Moro. 6:4). It is our duty and opportunity to provide these things.”
“I am hopeful that a great effort will go forward throughout the Church, throughout the world, to retain every convert who comes into the Church.”
Culture has an impact on retention of lifelong members, too. While it is highly inaccurate to suggest that most people leave because they're "offended," religion is a social thing by definition, and faith is much easier to maintain if the people you share it with aren't making you miserable. Even people with severe doubts about church teachings and history are far more likely to tolerate them and stick around if they feel loved and happy at church. Personally, I have many friends in my ward right now and no complaints about the social aspects there, but the church culture at least in the US is increasingly becoming something I want nothing to do with. And attempts by leadership to scare young people out of leaving instead of taking their concerns seriously, like Brad Wilcox's recent fireside, are going to have the opposite effect. It's pushed me halfway out the door and I know of others for whom it was the final straw.
This is a little off topic, but has anyone ever wondered if there will ever be more than 15 Apostles again? The last time it happened was in 1981 when President Hinckley was called to serve as 3rd Counselor in the First Presidency (due to health issues of Presidents Kimball, Tanner, and Romney). And the last Apostle who did not serve in the Quorum of the Twelve was Alvin R. Dyer, who served in the First Presidency from 1968-1970. There have also been Counselors and an Associate to the Quoruom of the Twelve, all of whom were ordained Apostles.
Just curious if this similar situation will ever occur again, or if we've come to a point where this will no longer be needed.
@Unknown, yes, the next time a 16th apostle is scheduled to be added is July 12, 2027.
In seriousness, obviously no one knows if or when that will ever happen again, but I think if the circumstances called for it (e.g. ill health among several members of the First Presidency), then it would be justified again. We are lucky to have such a healthy First President now, especially considering President Nelson's age. On April 16, 2022, he will become the oldest living prophet in this dispensation (surpassing Gordon B. Hinckley), and on August 9, 2022 he will become the oldest living apostle in this dispensation (surpassing David B. Haight). He will turn 98 on September 9th. I would not be surprised to see him reach 100 or beyond.
Were there negative aspects of Brad Wilcox’s talk? Is he a Seventy? Right? People go less active for many reasons, combinations of them. I met a brother from Gambia recently, last name Njie, Pronounced EN- JEYE (rhymes with EYE).
Second Counselor in the Young Men General Presidency. He mentioned some information about the timing of the priesthood revelation to which people took exception, given the fact that the Church acknowledged in the essay about that restriction remaining in place due to some degree of racism. So they are criticizing Brother Wilcox for his remarks on the timing. But his critics conveniently forgot that lifting the restrictions was also attempted in the 50s and 60s, without sufficient apostolic support. So I actually agree with the idea that the timing was important for the right group of apostles to ask the right questions to get the right answer. Brother Wilcox's remarks were not meant to offend, and he doesn't deserve the flack he's getting on the matter. Hope that clarifies this situation.
Among other areas, California has lost 3 wards so far this year 2022, in Redlands, Danville and Lake Forest. And Norway recently closed the Alesund Branch.
James, if it wasn’t an issue then the Church wouldn’t have forced him to issue an apology and BYU wouldn’t have issued their own statement expressing concerns about his comments. This is not the first time he has mentioned this exact frame of thoughts either. This wasn’t a slip of the tongue or a poorly executed concept to be clarified. There is footage of him using the exact same comments 4 years ago, given the insistence on using it again could indicate it has been said before many times, but now we have it on film and people are concerned on where this type of thinking is going in the Church.
In regards to the essays, that is a little disingenuous as the Church has neither a) made known publicly of their existence and location for reference or b) included all of the essays addressing difficult topics in the church wide curriculum to be studied and understood by the members. Those essays if included in regular lessons for adults and youth would start a healing conversation.
Brett, if what you said about the fact that he reiterated something he previously said is true, then obviously his apology was needed in this latest slip. I was unaware of his previous opinions on this matter because I only started following him when his posts were featured in the latest editions of "This Week on Social". Of course, being a General Officer this time around would lead to more scrutiny on the matter. And I had obviously not been aware of his previous posts.
Additionally, Brett, not sure where you got the information that the essays are not available publicly. I have repeatedly found and read more than a few of them by following this link:
I had thought it was available in print form, but I was incorrect about that. But each Gospel Topic Essay was included on that site as soon as the addition thereof was approved by top Church leaders. Sorry you were unaware of that. The Church actually did announce the completion of the last of those essays and where to find them, but that was more than 6 years ago:
I assume they will be available in a future physical manual which can be procured at the Church's online store, but that has not yet happened. But they've been available to any who searched for them for at least the last 6 years. And because they've been available that long, any classes that would have discussed them would have been discontinued per the following announcement:
The announcement specifically mentioned the following statement: The Gospel Principles course will be discontinued. All members and interested friends will be invited to attend their respective adult or youth Sunday School class. The Church later clarified that other courses that might take youth or adults away from attending their Sunday School or Gospel Doctrine were discontinued as "alternate" Sunday School clases. So for now, the best option is to study them online. I've read a fair few of them myself. Again, sorry you weren't aware of the availability of the letters before now.
People also took exception to Brother Wilcox's patronizing comments about women and the priesthood, and his demeaning attitude toward other churches. He said that everyone else in the world except us is just "playing church" because they "don't have God's permission". Obviously we do teach that we're the "only true and living church," but we can be a lot more respectful in how we teach that, and less dismissive of the great amount of truth and goodness in other faiths (not even just Christian churches). Preach My Gospel straight-up says that Confucius, Mohammed, and the Buddha were inspired by God. Not just that they did the best they could, but that they were inspired by God. It would be absurd for God to try to do *everything* through one church that constitutes .02% of the world's population. We should even learn from other faiths that are better at some things than we are. Matt has pointed out many times that Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and multiple Protestant groups have far more successful missionary programs than we do. Doubling down on an "us vs. everyone else" worldview just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Christopher, as I stated above, I had been unaware of what Brother Wilcox specifically said most recently, and I wasn't aware of anything he had said that similarly led to past times when he came under fire. I have only been aware of his public statements and comments since the Church News started sharing regular reports of social media posts for general officers of the Church. As I acknowledged in my last comment, I did not realize this had happened so much in the past, and his recent public statements would likely receive additional scrutiny in view of his now serving in the Young Men General Presidency. I wouldn't hold it against him that the apology may have fallen short. I still think the second verse of the hymn "Lord, I Would Follow Thee" is applicable in this case, and I think it would be wise for all of us to remove the beams out of our own eyes before attempting to try to cast the mote out of Brother Wilcox's eye. As Elder Bednar put it in his October 2006 General Conference talk: "To be offended is a choice we make; it is not a condition inflicted or imposed upon us by someone or something else." So for my part, I'm choosing not to be offended. I myself have chosen to take offense to the societal problem of "cancel culture." The fact of the matter is that, even if he has given "offensive" remarks prior to his current calling, dredging up something from someone's past to justify the choice of being more offended in a current case where there's a higher degree of scrutiny now. Since "all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God", I'm not comfortable passing a present or past negative judgement on anyone. I have no room to do so. As the Savior said, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone." I don't know your situation, Christopher, but if someone were to scrutinize my past statements on Facebook or in my blog posts or comments, someone could almost certainly drudge up at least one, but probably more, things that I've posted in the public domain that, for whatever reason, has not aged well. Other people are free to make their own calls on this matter, but for myself, it's not a call I feel qualified to make. Hope that futher clarifies where I'm coming from.
Some religions are much less centralized so there is not as much pressure on the one narrative, like the Church of Jesus Christ, to hold up to criticism. Petty stuff gets a lot of people down or turned off.
Celebrate good times! If things like this keep up there may be a way to reconfigure the Holland, Grand Rapids, Lansing and Kalamazoo stakes so we get a 5th stake in that area. It also gives me more hope for a Grand Rapids Temple.
Endowment is a good thing. I have known of people who went after a year but were not really prepared and did not like it and then went inactive, or in the case of my step grandmother, had her name removed from the records of the Church.
I think we need to make sure that people are fully prepared for the endowment. 1 year works for some, I know a few very stalwart sisters in my branch who literally went on the day 1 year after their baptism. Others take longer. A brother in my branch baptized about 3 years ago was just ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood.
We need to ensure people are spiritually ready and engaged.
Another example is the Sunday School president I am a counselor to. He was baptized at some point in 2017. He had major issues with substance abuse and addiction. He was in ARP. He made it to the temple for his own endowment in July of 2021, the week before Detroit Temple shut for a 4 month minor remodel mainly of the entry. So roughly 3 and a half years after he was baptized.
The key is helping people move forward. Elder Gilbert's general conference talk said some key things on this matter. I am sure if he had the time he could have spent hours giving us the details on the process and shown that the end results were not always even believable.
I remember in the MTC being in a very large meeting with President Nixon who was my district president. He had been mission president in the mission in Wisconsin. He was a truly relic of another age as he served his first mission as a young married man, leaving his wife behind at home. He asked how long someone had to wait to go to the temple after baptism. Many shouted of out a year. Scott Lantz, who was from my stake and endowed in the Detrout Temple the same day as me, this was the first time two people got endowed in the Detroit Temple the same day who were headed to the same mission. To be fair it was also 7 months after the Detroit Temple was dedicated. Anyway Elder Lantz was the only who shouted out you could go immediately to do baptisms. Brother Nixon then proceeded to tell us how in Wisconsin taking people to do baptisms helped get much better retention rates.
Some things I read suggest yo me that President Hinckley found ways to involve the quorum of the 12 in some things the First Presidency had previously handled, making it eiser to function even if the 1st presidency was not at full health. The passage I read did not give any examples.
Before President Nelson almost all temple dedications were done by members of the 1st presidency. He has clearly broadened it to the full 12.
60 years ago most new stakes were organized by 2 members of the 12. Today it is most often a general authority seventy and an area seventy.
There are ways the burden placed on the 12 has been spread out to try to not require there to be more.
However there could be more called at some point. Predicting the future is not my Forte.
For example I have only once ever made a specific prediction that an existing general authority would not be called to the 12. That was predicting Elder Gong would not become a member of the 12. Considering most general authorities do not get called to the 12, the fact I got my one ordination wrong takes really not being good at making predictions.
The best evidence is that David O. McKay did not feel he had a,clear revelatory mandate to lift the restriction and some apostles felt there was a need for a clear revelatory mandate.
Remarks by Elder Legrand R. Curtis, a general authority and Church Historian, at the 50th anniversary celebration of Genesis Group, from a journal I think of a mission resident, suggest that at least as early as 1974 President Kimvall was regularly pleading with the Lord on the matter of when to lift the priesthood restriction.
I will not even urss as to why it took 4 years of regularly pleading with the Lord to feel confident on moving forward. What is clear is this was neither a rushed thing nor that at least President Kimball had not heavily thought on the matter.
What I find disingenuous about some responses to Brother Wilcox's remarks is that they ate done without considering how the fact that he is second counselor in a general young men presidency where the first counselor is a black man impacts things. Especially a black man that is married to a white women that to the many racists is the worst outrage.
Also the fact that people are not obliged to calculate in their diatribes that President Nelson spoke at the national convention of the NAACP, or that he issued a joint statement in the summer of 2020 with top leaders of the NAACP, or that the Church just started a $9 million joint project with the NAACP and the UNCF, or that President Nelson publicly spoke of his friendship with Amos Brown on ML King day, or comments by Elder Cook and Presidents Nelson and Oaks in conference and President Oaks at BYU which was the last first presidency devotional at BYU, and I could go on.
The fact of the matter is I am over 40 years old and was born after Offucial Declaration 2 was issued, and too many people act as if we are still in the time and era when it was issued when we are not. As a senior in high school in the north suburbs of Detroit my high school guidance counselor who was a liberal who loathed Rush Limbaugh so much she refused to drink Florida orange juice because the Florida orange growers advertised on Limbaugh's show, gave me a one on one lecture on the inadvisability of marrying a black woman. No church leader ever gave me such counsel. The advice from the counselor may have been prompted by my writing 2 stories for creative writing class where my main character was a white man who married a black woman. One was set at BYU in the spring of 1978. The other was set in 1999 (the present then) Detroit and involved a white fire fighter with a black wife. At that time all Detroit employees had to live in the city. My church leaders did not feel the need to counsel me on such matters even though they saw me actually dancing with a black young woman on occasion, something my school leaders never observed.
There was a family history training center, the only one in the Church, that operated out of an old Seminary building across from the defunct and now bulldozed Farrer Junior High in Provo.
It was at that location were I heard him talk extensively about temple attendance by new converts, he apparently also did this in Sacramento. The Church saw this and so it is on the New and Returning Member form since maybe 2005.
They had to move the center to Orem near the Frontrunner station, but closed it for good when the missionary surge hit then UVU expanded, the reason for the move to Orem was black mold was found in the Seminary building.
The essays which are not attributed or signed off by any of the FP or Q12 leave more questions than answers. The issue with the priesthood ban on people of African heritage still hasn’t been adequately dealt with. The embedded racism in the Book of Mormon hasn’t been dealt with, nor have the many “theories” pushed forward for over the years by senior leaders to why the doctrine was necessary until 1978. There was no prophesy or revelation required for the initial ban, yet leaders feel it was required to undo it. Why? Honesty towards historical issues is required. Disavowing this policy for what it was, a product of a racist and bigoted era is required. This Church, for which both sides of my family have been in since the 1880’s will continue to fade away until significant changes are made on historical issues and current doctrinal practises and policies.
Wrong again, Brett. The main page of the manual itself says: "Recognizing that today so much information about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can be obtained from questionable and often inaccurate sources, officials of the Church began in 2013 to publish straightforward, in-depth essays on a number of topics. The purpose of these essays, which have been approved by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has been to gather accurate information from many different sources and publications and place it in the Gospel Topics section of ChurchofJesusChrist.org, where the material can more easily be accessed and studied by Church members and other interested parties.
"The Church places great emphasis on knowledge and on the importance of being well informed about Church history, doctrine, and practices. Ongoing historical research, revisions of the Church’s curriculum, and the use of new technologies allowing a more systematic and thorough study of scriptures have all been pursued by the Church to that end. We again encourage members to study the Gospel Topics essays cited in the links below as they 'seek learning, even by study and also by faith.'
Had you done more research on the gospel topics essays, you would have found information demonstrating that the essays were written by Church History scholars, both from among Church members and from friends of other faiths. As they crafted each essay, samples of each would be reviewed by a select group of general authorities, eventually including those who serve in the Curriculum Department. After their suggestions had been made and included, each essay was then submitted to the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, where the First Presidency had final approval on each. They would not be included with the Church curriculum without that approval.
Again, all of this information can be confirmed by researching more about the process whereby the essays were crafted and approved. The First Presidency has always had the final say on what is included in curriculum materials, and this was no different. With all due respect, you've now made two erroneous claims about the essays that can be verified as incorrect if you research these matters yourself. I'd strongly encourage anyone with further concerns about those essays to ask the Lord to inspire that research about them. Until that happens, we are likely to see incorrect claims floating about.
Brett, you know me well enough by now to know how much I respect you and value your feedback, both here and on my blog. But the last two or three comments I shared in reply to your recent incorrect claims suggests to me that you need to do more research on these essays before commenting further about them. I hope you will, and if you do so, I know the Lord can bless your efforts. He has blessed mine. That's why, 6 years after their publication, I have access to information in responding to your concerns. And your earnest research on this will verify the particulars I laid out here. Happy searching.
@Brett: I agree that matters of race have not been fully dealt with. In fact, many, many things haven’t been fully dealt with. I wonder how the different races came to be.
@ everyone: I have many curiosities about how the plan of salvation works, and I enjoy increasing my knowledge by study and by faith. I have learned directly from the Lord about things consistent with official church doctrine, but may or may not be official church doctrine. I keep these things as tentative understandings. There is so much yet to be revealed. I do not know why more has not been revealed faster, or why the Lord sometimes gives me direction in fulfilling my ministering and callings and sometimes no direction comes. I am not always certain the degree to which my premonitions are from God vs my own desires. I am not always happy when the church prioritizes some things over others. I wonder what God thinks about climate change and whether the Prophet has any thoughts on this personally and / or as Seer. I wonder if there are things even more important than race relations that are being neglected. I wonder whether the revealing of things would be faster if the general church membership were more righteous. I wonder so many things. But I know with more certainty than anything else that Jesus Christ’s is the head of the church and he knows what he is doing. I often forget that God’s priorities don’t coincide with the topics interesting to me that I learn alot about :-)
But know this: everything will be made known eventually to those who seek Jesus.
There is are a couple of essays about the Priesthood, including one focused on race and another focusing on how women have access to and can utilize priesthood power. I loved those particularly.
Anonymous, I am not necessarily on the spectrum (that I know of). Brett Stirling has been a longtime friend who greatly contributes to discussions here and on my own blog. He and I have developed a good relationship over the years, so he knows where I'm coming from. I can only be as blunt and direct as I was above with family and very good friends. I apologize to any who may be offended by my recent exchange with Brett, but hope he knows that I'm only that blunt and direct with the people who matter most to me.
I think “communicating softly” is an interesting way to express the idea of sharing ideas and opinions. Some things are bold and exaggerated, bluster and balloons hoo. Many things and people may or will wither away, but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will fulfill every true prophecy that is promised to and pronounced upon it. Best be on the right side of the Lord and His Faith, I say. Direct and assertive, I call that view. Get on the bus! Board the Good ship Zion, no matter your background.
Eduardo, not sure if it will be the next country, but I wouldn't be surpised to the Church open in Sudan in the near future due to the new democratic government installed there.
I used to play soccer back in college in front of the old Farrer school building. Didn’t know they'd finally torn it down. Did they build anything nice in its place?
That whole property including the fields has apartments now. The old high school itself is being used for School of Fine Arts classes at BYU once they start to tear down and rebuild the HFAC, the new high school is out by the Provo Airport but far enough back that planes on short final do not have to worry about it if the approach is to Runway 19,
James, I do see where you are coming from in regards to approval and publishing essays, but how many of the membership have read them or know they exist? It is not the same as the FP including it in their monthly messages, or releasing a volume of work compiling them and conducting a press event or even better, discussing them across the pulpit in general conference.
I have done my research on them over their staggered release history from the past few years. They need to studied and received by the membership to enable everyone to move on from serious historic issues and false doctrines.
Brett, thanks for your response. I hope you took no offense from my previous comments, because I certainly didn't intend that. I agree that the essays as a resource should be more frequently alluded to by top leadership, but I also have some additional thoughts as well. In an evolving Church with a living prophet who has wasted no time making changes to improve the Church, Church leaders, Church employees, and the volunteers who offer their time are having trouble keeping up with the prophet. It appears no one at any level can do so physically or spirtually. That is both a blessing and a curse. President Nelson has done so much to correct the course of the Church. But anytime a major change or adjustment is announced, those who update and publicize available Church resources are literally scrambling to handle the updates and all that needs to be done.
I have been remarking for over a year now that, with the Temple Department having the responsibility to update the temple list, enough temple developments are occurring frequently enough that it's becoming more impossible to update on a continual basis. You'll note on that list that all temples that had a groundbreaking last year are still listed as "Announced".
Similarly, I had issues accessing several PDF versions of various Church magazines in the last year, wherein that PDF version was not available. Within the last week, I have gotten a few belated replies from the Church Response Team telling me the issues are finally fixed.
The challenge with a living prophet announcing so much in such a short period is that those who don't have the benefit of the smallest degree of a percentage of the energy President Nelson has, especially when the number of staff has not been able to expand fully enough fast enough to meet the ongoing influx, every Church department is currently understaffed. And working for the Church requires prospective employees to meet the highest standards. The COVID-19 pandemic has only exacerbated the problems of understafefing at Church headquarters.
One part of the problem is that a lot of those staffing issues are for positions that require a certain kind of education. I myself could probably easily keep a list of templea current for the Church, but with the possible exception of entry-level positions, working for the Church requires at least a bachelor's degree. So in terms of real-life experience, I'd qualify to keep the list updated, but absent any kind of degree, any application from me for the Temple Department would be rejected for that reason alone, assuming they'd be open to my working remotely.
The Gospel Topics essays, as important a resource as they are, are not able to be properly promoted, published, and distributed, most likely due to the staffing issues I have discribed. But it's also possible that the Curriculum Department is another that has borne the brunt of similar issues. I have a feeling that at some point, both the requirements and parameters of the job qualifications may need to change. With BYU-PW offering certificates of achievement and/or an easier way to earn degrees, hopefully over the next couple of decades, there will be a bigger crop of qualified individuals to fix the short-staffing issues. Hopefully that could happen sooner.
But for now, everyone is having to play catch-up with a 97 year-old man who feels an urgency to move the Church forward with never a backward step, even if that leaves some scrambling to keep up and never quite getting there. And for the record, in saying that, I'd prefer to continue seeing President Nelson move the Church forward, even if so many things take a lesser priority as a result.
At the right time, when it can be made possible, I'm sure the essays will be made available in print, and an active promotion of them will occur in conjunction with that. In the meantime, if there are more important things the Lord needs done in His Church than that, I can hardly blame the Brethren for holding off on that for the time being.
The point is that they are readily available now for anyone who would care to take the time to locate them. I believe the Church mentioned that the essays could be found in 3-4 clicks on the Church website, but I can't swear to that. I do know that sometimes, in the footnotes of the General Conference talks, I have seen a few references to the Gospel Topics essays. Unless I'm mistaken, some over-the-pulpit mentions have been made of them as well.
And if that's the best the Church can do for now, I cannot criticize that. I hope no one else would.
I'd heard they'd bought the old high school and renamed Bulldog Ave. (to "Cougar" Ave., right?), but it's news to me that they're rebuilding the HFAC! I have a lot of fond memories in there (I was an art student).
I thought that the Harris Fine Arts Center worked pretty well. Did most of my Theatre Minor there, graduated 1995. I wonder what the BYU-Idaho arts building looks like.
They have already started on replacing the HFAC. The new fine arts building is west of the law school where the parking lot used to be. Probably will be done in the next year to 18 months by the looks of it.
Oh, and for the record, the Church discontinued monthly First Presidency messages, as announced in the April 2018 Ensign. As I said, the essays have been used or cited in General Conference talks.
As well he should. The fact that he had incorporated this in previous talks and NOT been called out for it is rather telling. I'm glad that someone called him out on it.
This could have been averted and in a rather simple way, by focusing on the Scriptures and with the concept that it is the Lord who decides who to give His priesthood power too, and there were times of expansion and contraction of this power. It is His power, not our power, so it is not us who makes the rules, but the Lord who makes them.
Bryan, you and I have known each other for a while now. I consider you a good friend, and I know how valuable your comments are here and on my blog. At the same time, with all due respect, I have some concern that your response to the apology, "as well he should", may not be very Christlike or charitable. Brother Wilcox took time to explain that Brother Ahmad Corbitt, whom he serves with in the Young Men General Presidency, and several Black Church members took time to "lovingly counsel and correct" him on this matter. I have a feeling the Savior would have done the same thing as well. In fact, He frequently did that, never condoning sin, but always encouraging the sinner to be better and not repeat their mistakes.
If the Savior were here at the time Brother Wilcox's comments were issued, I think He'd take to social media to counsel us: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone." and only then would he go on to gently counsel and correct Brother Wilcox. "As well he should"? Really? I mentioned in a previous comment that I shudder to think what someoe might dredge up in my future about past things I've said that is chronicled in the public domain. That's one of many reasons I've tapered down my personal usage of social media.
I really do fear that, although Brother Wilcox should be allowed to resume his role in the Young Men presidency and not have to deal with this anymore now that he's set the record straight, that unkind people in a less-than-Christlike way won't be satisfied with either apology, and might not let him move on from this. "Cancel culture" is one of the stupidest things about society today, and it is not in any way Christlike. If we continue to sustain Brother Wilcox in his calling, which we absolutely should do, we'd all be well-advised to let him move past this, and to move on from this.
I for one would very much like to move on to other topics here. There has barely been any acknowledgement of the First Presidency's surprising announcement about the April 2022 General Conference. I would much prefer to talk about that. While I hope that a fair amount of female speakers will be featured, it did occur to me to wonder if perhaps the new model for Saturday Evening Sessions (wherein one apostle and one member of the First Presidency were featured along with at least two GA Seventies. If that happens, since the Relief Society General President serves on the Priesthood and Family Executive Council, I wonder if other members thereof might speak at that time. Among them could be Elders Michael T. Ringwood and Randy D. Funk, who are both on that Executive Council. I believe that Bishop Causse is as well, as is Sister Bingham, who is set to be released as Relief Society General President this Conference. Just some ideas I've been considering, so thanks for indulging me on that subject.
This has some excellent primary source references about the history of race and the church. I found it to be in greater detail than the Gospel Topics essays.
Factually, I do not understand his comment of 1829 years without priesthood. Christ and His apostles had the priesthoods after 30 AD, at least till they all died. John the Revelator has had it all the time since, plus the 3 Nephites. Sure, there was general apostasy, as we know it, for 1700 or so years between the fall of Peter and and the rise of Joseph Smith, but Bro. Wilcox has flawed math as well as reasoning. I feel for him and wish him and all of us the best. The Church is not perfect, but the Lord is. They work together for our good.
I do not wish to be seen as "piling on" Bro. Wilcox" as he has apologized, none of us are perfect, and the Atonement is real and Christ is the foundation of our Gospel and loves everyone. However, just because Bro. Wilcox apologized and I have forgiven him, that doesn't mean I should ignore the incident. This is prime teaching moment. I think other commenters on this blog have expressed a high degree of concern -- not because they're joining social media mobs of "cancel culture" (as I genuinely think most commenters support the leaders and are Christlike), but I think Bro. Wilcox said things that were not only "offensive" and "insensitive" (and let's not downplay it by saying, people are "choosing to be offended." It was objectively offensive), but because, in some cases, he said things not factual regarding the Priesthood -- and he is a Professor of Religion at BYU and in the Young Men's Presidency, who is in the actual business and spiritual business to know better than to teach outdated doctrine to future generations. It's very frustrating/discouraging -- especially in light of the recent strides of the Church (especially Pres. Nelson's with the NAACP) -- but it's eye-opening so we realize that even our professors of religion at BYU are still teaching from outdated platforms. Learning and growing from our mistakes is a painful journey.
I found this to be an excellent resource for learning more about the Priesthood ban history and its remarkable restoration to everyone (because indeed it was a restoration to everyone): https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/spencer-w-kimball-and-the-revelation-on-priesthood/
I started to look over that source in question, but the minute the author said "the Church is not all it claims to be", it lost me. That is in direct violation of recent prophetic and apostolic assertions that the Church is exactly what it claims to be. Any source that counters prophetic and apostolic declarations right at the outset should not be advanced as "an excellent primary resource" on Church-related matters, especially on a blog that supports the purpose and mission of the Church. Sounds to me like the author is already "on the high road to apostasy":
While there may be bullet-points of "facts" (like quotes and excerpts) in this, it is basically an anti-mormon persuasive writing assignment - their go-to handbook - if you will. The pieces of "evidences" are not portrayed accurately on so many topics that it downright annoys me (especially the Archaeology, Book of Abraham, Temple/Freemasonry stuff), but they give the illusion they are doing a fair and thorough assessment. Don't be fooled. If you have questions and concerns, ask, and we will do our best to help you and guide you to more credible sources. Hopefully, we can be be kind about it too. ��
For starters, I linked a very detailed, historical account of the Priesthood ban that demonstrated how the Church has evolved over time and eventually came to an understanding that the ban was not rooted in any doctrine or scriptural basis, but by the "tradition of our father" type of policy. Evolution and change is healthy -- shouldn't be seen as contradictory (as the author of the cite you listed maintained --- for basically everything).
@Mon Chou, "everyone" is accurate in a sense because black women during the priesthood ban weren't allowed to receive essential temple ordinances or serve missions either.
We need to give church leaders grace, but we also need to hold them to a higher standard because they influence millions of people and the entire church culture. When I say offensive things, nobody thinks for a moment that I speak for the Church, and probably nobody is going to lose their testimony over it. (And just to be clear, Brad Wilcox's offensive statements about women and other churches were in the same talk. It was a really tonedeaf and uninspired talk.) I actually hope these apologies, imperfect though they are, will set a precedent. Church leaders never publicly apologize for anything, but they should when it's warranted. Regular members are expected to apologize when they wrong somebody. Why should leadership be exempt? Why do we pretend they're perfect even though we claim to understand that they aren't? Why is it frowned upon to acknowledge their mistakes before they're dead?
Quick question, at what point was this comment section a forum for all things related to the church? I thought it was specifically a place to discuss the growth of the church (temples, stakes, wards, etc.) Now please, on behalf everyone quit your childish bickering, if you want to talk about what elder Wilcox said go to reddit. That is what it is for anyways. Nobody here has been enlightened, felt supported, nor uplifted by this complete and utter foolishness and it has now been 3-4 days now that I've had to read your all's off topic comments. I'm also sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, hence why I'm no longer holding my peace. In summary, please take your discussion of such off topic matters somewhere else. This comment section is not a soap box you are entitled to hijack, even if you already hath done so.
Well said. I concur as well. The only reason I first weighed in on this is because the discussion in substance and tone was detracting from other topics more worthy of our time.
With that in mind, further research on my end shows that the dedications of the Quito Ecuador, Belem Brazil, Praia Cabo Verde, and San Juan Puerto Rico Temples could all be announced in the next 6-8 weeks. With the New Zealand and Japan borders anticipated to reopen in spring, I'd anticipate reopening arrangements for those temples could be announced after General Conference. I'd also anticipate that in April or May, the Church will provide details on the Logan Utah renovation.
I was also told the groundbreaking for the Belo Horizonte Brazil Temple was anticipated in April or May, and that spring would be the likely time for the groundbreakings of the remaining 6 US temples which have had renderings released, with the Ephraim Utah Temple likely to have a rendering released and a groundbreaking scheduled before the end of June.
I am an advocate for transforming mistakes into opportunities of growth. I have no intention to get up on my proverbial soapbox (I very rarely comment). A lot of the core issues relating to the talk are key topics addressed on this blog and are DIRECTLY related to the GROWTH of the Church. How is a talk by a General Authority about reasons to STAY in the Church (i.e. MEMBERSHIP RETENTION ) not relevant to this blog? I understand that what is bandied about are excerpts of the most problematic statement so the context of the talk is lost; thus, some consider this topic to be irrelevant. However, the premise of the talk was to INSPIRE YOUTH TO STAY IN THE CHURCH --- which is very relevant and crucial to this blog. There is a connection, but I understand completely why many have failed to see that amidst the hubub of it all. I think attitudes that refuse to take the opportunity to listen and improve contribute to why many young people are leaving the Church. The speaker did listen and did improve -- this isn't about him. It's bout the lesson we as a Church can learn from it.
Rhetorical questions (ones that were examples of types of questions people, especially Young Adults and Youth, might leave the Church over) were asked and then were answered by the speaker. Unfortunately, the speaker's responses to questions that mirror many sincere/genuine questions were answered with (whether intentional or not) flippant rhetoric that were condescending and dismissive of earnest questions. I don't want/need to rehash what's been stated elsewhere regarding statements concerning race/women/other religions, but by the talk's conclusion there was a general sense of divisiveness instead of commonground. In a talk meant to INSPIRE to STAY, an aggressive rhetoric rooted in fear instead of love was oddly chosen. (I suspect as a well known Youth Speaker, high energy talks to maintain the youth's attention can get tricky and attempts at entertainment may not always be palatable?).
Anyway, I just want to say, that a lesson (among many) we can learn as a Church, which might be helpful in maintaining our membership of the Youth/Young Adults, is to be more understanding/compassionate of these questions/concerns/doubts, not to be so belittling of those who do have these questions/concerns/doubts, and not be so quick to brush these questions/concerns aside. We need to take the time to properly address these questions/concerns/doubts. As a part of that, we need to be transparent about our past regarding various topics. Mistakes have been made through the course of the Church's History (and that's okay), but I think people (prospective members and young members alike - frankly, many members) just want acknowledgement of that instead of fierce loyalty bound up in a flawed human. In sum, I think for purposes of membership retention (and likewise membership growth), more respect concerning difficult questions should be granted and there needs to better acknowledgement that there have been policies enacted based on misguided traditions. As an institution, the Church is progressing, but it's apparent it will take time for this to trickle down.
I have not and will not engage in "childish bickering" or "utter foolishness" and hope that just because others have, does not mean I will be pigeonholed with them because it's tied to the same topic. As a note of clarification: I am not "entitled" and I have not "hijacked" the comments as I fully support, expect, and am interested in other topics to be presented -- I just don't believe in suppression simply because someone is "over-it" and assumes discussions of how to do better and maintain Church Membership and Church Growth are "attacks." In fact, I applaud the example of the speaker and I am humbled by his humility -- for lack of better words. **I purposely did not mention his name in this post to tarnish his name.
I agree 100%! It's not "evidence" but as Richard Bushman has said, the dominant narrative of church history deliberately glosses over some of the uncomfortable truths of our past. I'm not trying to lead anyone away from the church at all, it was just helpful for me to read those quotes to better understand the milieu in which the race ban on priesthood and temple ordinances was denied to African descendents. I couldn't find primary sources that have compiled those quotes other than "anti" material. As a church, I don't think we should be scared of our history and should confront the inaccuracies and moral quandaries of our past head-on. I will also check out the link you cited, Mon Chou!
I was hoping that a site location/city would be announced for the temple in Russia this year, but with tensions in Ukraine, that seems far from likely.
James - Reading the CES letter was one of the most painful things I ever did as a member of the church but I'm glad that I read it. We shouldn't be afraid to examine literature that confronts the church, in fact by understanding the arguments from apostates helps us better bring them back into the fold. Poor thinking can only be corrected with better thinking!
@Anonymous, gotcha. Makes sense. I kind of speculated that's why you included it (no worries), but wasn't sure if you were an investigator or not (didn't want to make assumptions) so I said something. But you're totally right -- it is hard to find everything compiled into one place unless you invest in a pricey tome, that's why I was kind of thrilled when I came across this article earlier because it was so transparent regarding the messy past and didn't shy away from tough truths regarding the Priesthood topic (and it included most of the same quotes as the other website), but is a a trusted source AND in that same vein that it is thorough on difficult nitty-gritty details it is also detailed in the worldwide miracles and prophetic inspiration involved in removing the ban. It was such an uplifting article about how change is a beautiful thing. I've never really been taught about the miracles or insights surrounding President Kimball's Revelation either. Once I read this, I just had to circulate it among my entire family when I found it. Haha. I think it was the most well written article I've ever read regarding the Priesthood restriction. In case it gets lost in the shuffle: it's here (in case others are interested): https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/spencer-w-kimball-and-the-revelation-on-priesthood/
Also, another source, is this wonderful "Black History in the Church" Devotional given last year in California by Mauli Bonner Jr. (Director of "Green Flake" - about black Pioneers that rode across with Brigham Young) and member of the 70, Elder Miskin: https://youtu.be/6cfRvJ-q0ag It covered a lot of the same things in the article, but of course, this has a lot of visuals for those of us who are visual learners. It was moving to hear it from an African-American perspective.
*I'm not sure why people are saying nobody has been enlightened, supported, or uplifted by these comments. �� I think if people took the time to look at what I provided here they would be incredibly uplifted and maybe find it educational too. Sometimes "a man will do more for his stubbornness than for his religion."
Quick Question, are young adults and youth leaving the Church at record pace? True or False? I thought this comment section was specifically a place where we strive to understand membership oscillation so that we can better teach and reach out to God's children. Now please, on behalf of everybody, let's not impede discourse seeking to improve pedagogical, ministering, and proselytizing methods so that we may continue to do so. The topic of not only "Com[ing] Unto Christ," but Staying with Christ is definitely a "worthy" topic for this comment section. I must say, I found myself betwixt the sensation of being flummoxed and downright disheartened to read expressions suggesting the contrary. Furthermore, I fail to understand how some comments pertaining to this topic prevents others from broaching new topics as the very nature of a comment section is disconnected/disjointed thoughts. Let's not cast derision to respectful dialogue.
Anyone has a choice to read anything they feel good about, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's better to understand the opposition. Back when I first found out the CES letter was a thing, I had considered reading it and made whether I should do so a matter of earnest prayer. The answer I got was a distinct and forceful "no". I fundamentally disagree that the best defense is a good offense. Other people can view such material as they feel inclined to. For whatever reason, the Lord made it clear to me that it would be better for me personally to not even attempt to do so.
I don't know why, but I have gotten clear and distinct impressions like that in the past, and subsequent to that, so I have no reason to doubt it was the right decision for me personally. IMHO, if anything doesn't pass the litmus test described in D&C 9:7-9, it's probably something we should avoid. In those occasions when the Lord needed me to speak or respond to any gospel-related question, it was my preparation to do so, not "studying the opposition's playbook" that was most beneficial for me.
If others feel good about their choice to read it, then obviously that was the right choice for them. We all have to make the choices that are right for each of us to be where the Lord needs us when He has something He needs us to do. That path looks different to everyone, and as long as we all feel confident in those chosen paths, and that they are approved by the Lord, we cannot hope for any more or less than that.
Another recent comment here asked about the Nicaragua and Russia Temples. I have some information on both. Following his 2012 apostolic promise that a temple would be announced in Nicaragua, a site for such an edifice was procured around 3-4 years later. And although then-Elder Nelson could not have known this, the Lord surely knew at the time he gave that apostolic promise that he himself would be the prophet that would fulfill that promise.
Subsequently, with the announcements of the San Pedro Sula Honduras and Coban Guatemala Temple, a Church member contact of mine living in the Central America Area reportedly hahd seen the exterior renderings for all three temples, but didn't know how soon each would be released. I was given tips from this same individual that the renderings for Coban and San Pedro Sula would be released and the groundbreakings set just before those respective announcements on both temples were made.
While no site announcement or rendering has been released for Managua, hopefully that will occur soon, I hope. We do know that the site has been acquired, so it may just be a matter of time. That said, let's move on to the Russia temple. Not long after that one was announced, I received confirmation that only 3 "major cities" were under active consideration: Moscow, Saratov, and St. Petersburg. Subsequently, my research on the matter indicated that the preferred location would be Moscow, which serves as the host city for the headquarters of the Europe East Area. It appeared likely that an ancillary facility could house offices for the area presidency members, mission presidency members, temple presidency members, and temple guests, among other features.
I subsequently received feedback from someone privy to information from Church headquarters regarding that temple that Moscow was the only location being actively discussed and considered by the Church. I wouldn't be surprised if the Russia-Ukraine issue delays the release of information on that temple. But around a year ago, I also received a tip to "keep [the Russia temple] on the periphery of [my] radar", since official information on that could possibly come down the pike sooner rather than later.
Hope these additional insights are helpful to all who read them.
The Cagayan de Oro Philippines Temple also has a location on Google Maps:
FJCV+RH7, Cagayan de Oro, Misamis Oriental, Philippines
Would you happen to have any more information on this temple?
The Lagos Nigeria Temple also has a location on Google Maps:
Church Bus Stop, Ojo, Lagos, Nigeria.
I also see the Rexburg North Idaho Temple location on Google Maps as well, and as a member of the Rexburg Idaho Stake, I can confirm that is the correct location for the future temple.
Thank you, Mon Chou, you expressed it beautifully. I have nothing personal against the speaker either. But getting stuff like this over the pulpit directly hinders church growth and retention. It made me want to leave, and some people did leave. One comment on YouTube reads, "Bro. Wilcox, congratulations, you single handedly broke my shelf. I was holding on for dear life and now...no way is this family of 5 staying."
Pills & Pillows, one study found that 6 in 10 LDS youth still identified as LDS a decade later, but of course not all of them were active. A leaked 2008 meeting of the Apostles discussed a 30% YSA activity rate in the US and a 20% YSA activity rate elsewhere. https://religionnews.com/2020/06/29/dear-mormon-parents-its-not-just-your-children-that-are-leaving-the-church/ Anecdotally, it appears that the problem has gotten worse because every young person in the Church has friends and/or family members who have left. If you ask about that in any YSA gathering, every hand goes up. A lot of it has to do with social issues. It's no secret that younger generations are far more supportive of LGBTQ+ rights and less patient with an organization that tells women they can't do certain things because of their sex. It makes me very sad, because we've lost some of the best people that way. If one person loses their faith because the pain of LGBTQ+ members breaks their heart, and another person is able to maintain their faith because they don't care about LGBTQ+ members, the Church is worse off for it. (Not that these are the only two categories of people, of course, but I see *a lot* of active members bending over backwards to avoid having empathy for LGBTQ+ people, trying to explain why a lifetime of loneliness and celibacy that they would never choose is no big deal for other people to have to choose, trying to avoid the cognitive dissonance of how awful that actually is.) The huge increase in talks, firesides, articles, and books about faith crisis, doubt, asking questions, controversial history, and "please don't leave the Church" within the last decade shows an increase in concern from leadership too. But then some of it misses the point and makes people's doubts and concerns worse by doubling down on prophet worship and us-vs.-everyone-else-in-the-world rhetoric.
Сњешко, I'm sorry that someone is holding a gun to your head and making you read comments you don't want to read. That must be really rough.
Growth and the lack of growth in the Kingdom of God occur physically, spiritually, emotionally, sociologically, psychologically, temporally, existentially, and on and on. Priesthood accounts of the Church of Jesus Christ touch on many of those. I understand your gripes, but at the same time, these issues affect the present and future growth of the faith. Gratefully the Church is growing well in many African nations, in Afro parts of Brazil and the Caribbean. There are other parts of the Antilles that are quite stagnant. Past issues do not affect the growth that much, I feel, but all members have a part in shaping the narrative of faith, love, acceptance. For Church growth. Who is on the Lord’s side? I hope I am. I know someone who served on the Isle of Mann. How is it to make it to the temple from there?
@Mon Chou, thanks for the link to that BYU studies article. I was particularly impressed and pleased it included the circa 1949 First Presidency statement that is often ignored. Including it in the context of a very detailed article from a believer's perspective rather than leaving coverage of it solely to anti-Mormon sources is much more faith-promoting in my view than taking an "out of sight, out of mind" approach.
@Christopher Nicholson, that 60% is consistent with what I have read. I remember seeing (perhaps even on this blog) some stats to the effect that in the 1980s the retention rate for young adults raised in the church was about 80%, but by the 2010s had fallen to about 66%. Regarding the various topics you mentioned, while you didn't make any claims about what "should be done" I have seen others make similar observations and follow them up with calls for changing church teachings around homosexual conduct or the ordination of women. History indicates that those who think such changes will improve church growth and retention are probably mistaken -- the denominations that have experienced the most significant collapse in membership in the late 20th and early 21st century, both within the US and globally, are those that did exactly that. Now, we don't (or at least, I don't think we should) base doctrine or commandments on what will increase or lower growth, so in some sense whether or not it would make a difference to church growth is irrelevant to what "should be done" doctrinally, though certainly it may impact how we minister to and interact with people both in and out of the church, but since the conversation is about the impact such things have on retention and growth I do think it is worth noting that the relationship between a church's teachings on these issues and proselyting/retention is not necessarily the "this harms the growth of the church" story some seem to think it is.
I will be frank as you all seem to take the truth rather harshly. As a gen-z ysa myself, nothing any of you have said would ever aid keeping one of my peers in the church. If this is really the best approach you can come up with, it is no wonder we are leaving in droves. But continue on, I'm sure it is making you all feel productive and better about yourselves. Aight I'm done with this, say what ever you want, but just know that if you are really concerned about helping myself and my peers, focusing on wilcox's words aren't going to get you any where
Unknown, the Lagos Nigeria Temple had a site procured not long after its' announcement, so it doesn't shock me that it's on LDS Maps. I have no information on Cagayan de Oro, other than the fact that it has remained in the queue while Davao has had a site confirmed, rendering released, and groundbreaking occur. The Rexburg North Idaho Temple location was indirectly confirmed by the family who owned the property, but there's been nothing official on that yet. I am hopeful that details on all four US Temples announced in October could be announced before the April 2022 General Conference.
Looks like I need to again update my temple construction progress report in view of the newest information shared here.
I also fully share your opinion. I haven't been a YSA in a very long time, but anyone with even the slightest bit of progressive thinking needs to ask these questions every now and then and stand up against backward talk, wherever it comes from.
I do appreciate many of the comments in regard to church growth. I do think some of this dialogue may be better suited for Reddit since it is delving more into other issues that are not directly related to Church growth. However, I think it is important to permit this dialogue since it has had a heavy emphasis on member activity rates and why people become inactive or leave the Church.
In terms of the question whether member activity rates are decreasing in the Church in the United States, and particularly among YSAs, I do not think that there has been a significant change in the past 20 years. They have consistently been very low outside of Utah and moderate to high at universities that attract large numbers of Latter-day Saints. For example, the Boulder Colorado Stake had about a 10% member activity rate for YSAs in the mid to late 2000s (and the student ward covered multiple stakes at the time). I was told that this is actually pretty typical for areas where there is not a college or university that attracts active members. In recent years, I think we are seeing more of a polarization with active members going to Church schools or schools with large numbers of active members, and fewer and fewer going to other schools, particularly those students who are not pursuing advanced degrees.
What I find most interesting about why people leave the Church is that the reason they say for why they leave often changes. Typically, it seems a major life event or crisis starts the path away from the Church (divorce, death, financial hardship, mental health crisis), and then the disaffiliated member later re-conceptualizes their reason for leaving to confirm with something very different (and often doctrinally related or blaming the institution). There was an excellent presentation about this phenomenon given at a SSSR conference a few years ago in which the presenter had did a longitudinal study of people who were in a ward in Utah and followed them years, or decades, later. It was a fascinating lecture that I will never forget. It was actually in October 2019, and called "Mundane Apostasy: Examining Catalysts for Mormon Disaffiliation in Utah" by Rick Phillips, University of North Florida.
The biggest crisis/crises in the Church in the United States would be, without a doubt, the problems with YSAs getting married and staying married and the declining birth rate in the Church. These are serious problems that have continued to worsen. Without correction, the Church will not be able to replace its active membership with the rising generation. I am sure there are varied reasons why this is a problem. Another major issue I have seen as well is worsening mental health problems among many younger members of the Church (this is a national trend not unique to Latter-day Saints). In the past, the Church has been much more insulated in the Intermountain West away from many societal trends, but this "Utah Bubble" has largely gone away in the past 10-20 years in the major population centers, and so we often see many of the national trends also affecting the Church membership (although sometimes it seems more like it has been postponed 10-20 years). For those of you unfamiliar with Spiral Dynamics, this is a great podcast that I think can explain some of the cultural shifts in the Church: https://podcastaddict.com/episode/84787384.
Finally, we have seen a trend that has accelerated in the past 2-4 years of active members moving to Utah away from many other states in the United States (which has probably affected the seemingly endless parade of temple announcements in Utah). Here in Colorado Springs, I would say probably as many as half of members who move out the city move to Utah, and we get very few move-ins from Utah nowadays. When I was growing up in the 90s, most of the new move-ins in the Church seemed to come from Utah and California.
I here what you are saying Сњешко. All of my children who are gen-z have left primarily because of larger cultural issues, but they also expressed to me that they felt lied to in church after learning about the inaccuracies surrounding the early church and Book of Mormon.
I think the messaging of church leadership is more about preserving the peace for older generations than deal directly with the information readily available to younger generations on the internet. I don't really understand it, but I believe my role for my children is to provide a nuanced approach. I feel sad for leaders who either refuse to ask why people are leaving in record numbers or refuse to hear their answers. Revamping the official church messaging for the youth to address some of the hard truths about the Church's past in a faith-promoting context could do wonders.
Anonymous, not sure if you'd remember this, but in 2008, then-Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf was called as Second Counselor in the First Presidency. Although his first General Conference talk in that assignment was given during the Priesthood Session, the following day, he gave his first address to the Church at large. That address was entitled "Faith of Our Father":
His address focused on providing encouragement to those who had, according to their family members, abandoned the "faith of [their] fathers" in favor of membership of the Church. He went on to explain why embracing the Church and choosing to stay therein would truly help these newest Church members remain true to the "faith of [their] Father."
Of all of the current apostles, Elder Uchtdorf has been the one to most often address those kinds of subjects in his talk, doing so further in October 2006 (The Power of a Personal Testimony), October 2008 (Happiness, Your Heritage), April 2009 (The Way of the Disciple and The Love of God, respectively), October 2011 (You Matter to Him), April 2013 (The Hope of God's Light), October 2013 (Come, Join with Us), April 2014 (Are You Sleeping Through the Restoration?), October 2014 (Living the Gospel Joyful and Receiving a Testimony of Light and Truth), October 2015 (It Works Wonderfully!), October 2016 (O How Great the Plan of Our God!), October 2018 (Believe, Love, Do), April 2019 (Missionary Work: Sharing What is In Your Heart), April 2020 (Come and Belong), and October 2021 (Daily Restoration).
So from just one apostle, I found 17 addresses from the last 15 years. I focused on Elder Uchtdorf's remarks because he has addressed the topic most often. But if we looked at the other 14 apostles, we'd likely find a far higher number of those kinds of talks. The problem therefore is not that Church leaders aren't addressing it, but that those who most need to hear these remarks are the ones who seem unaware they have been given, or are just not paying sufficient attentmon to what is actually said, and then bemoaning the fact that their concerns, and in fact, all major issues related to the Church, are not being sufficiently addressed. The Brethren should not be held responsible or culpable for the fact that those who most need to hear their remarks are not attentive to them. The addresses I shared above can be found relatively easily from the Gospel Library page.
I wouldn't say that I haven't been guility of inattentiveness to what is actually said in General Conference, but I have been able to find information like this in a relatively short amount of time, because I was in the practice of looking for it. While we as Church members may be guilty of not doing enough to retain new Church members, if a single apostle has given 17 talks on the subject in the last 15 years, that says more about the individual complaining that it's not being addressed than it ever does about the Brethren, who have frequently spoken on this subject.
Matt, I an truly sorry. It wasn't my intention to open that can of worms by posting a link to Bro. Wilcox's 2nd apology letter. I had hoped it would serve as a healing message and not exactly the opposite.
@Christopher Duerig, I certainly found it to be a healing a message. I dont think you opened a can of worms at all. you simply reported the news. can't shoot the messenger, right? it appears only one or two are disgruntled albeit vocal. thanks for sharing. thanks for your other links too as you are my go-to-guy for recent current events in the church.
@Mon Chou, thank you for that BYU article!!!!! I see why you were thrilled to find it. I had never heard those stories about Kimball before. i enjoyed learning. thanks for turning lemons into lemonade too. it's fun to know there's another woman reader here as i am sometimes shy about commenting by mere virtue of the "butterfly" username and the correlation of femininity sometimes to lightheartedness. honestly, as a young member in the church it's also nice "to be seen" by older generations and know that people are listening to our concerns.
@Matt, thank you very much for permitting such dialogue. i also am a gen-z(er) and do find this engagement productive. thanks for answering Pills&Pillows question. it is not always clear whether my generation is fleeing the church or it appears that way because of public announcements due to social media. i am not in the intermountain west or bubble as it were so where i live there are hardly any of us to begin with. from an anecdotal perspective, most my church friends i grew up with have left, but ive been told by leadership this was an illusion due to social media. which could be true. i don't have the data. can you tell me more about the young members live outside the mormon corridor? and is the past 20 years of fallout among the younger generations def larger than the fallout than that of the 60-70's?
@James, thanks for researching all of those GC talks given by Duchtorf. wonderful talks. as others said the Church leadership is making remarkable strides to be transparent but i don't think people are necessarily inattentive when they are unaware of problematic history. a large part might come down to local leadership. GC is not the proper venue to learn a litany of historical hard truths. not all of us have grown up in the church with seminary. and as anonymous pointed out, when you try to google the info, the most readily info available for free is compiled by anti-mormons. i for one would like to see more of those byu articles available on the official websites. and more devotionals like the one done by bonner.
@Сњешко, The scope of the conversation (at least my part of it) isn't about focusing on a particular speaker's words or about any one speaker for that matter - it had been my hope to transition into a more positive and more "on-topic" (as you rightly pointed out) discussion about what the collective "we" as a Church can learn. I apologize for my lack of eloquence in writing if that wasn't executed well and you were left with the impression I was dwelling in the past and laser focused on encircling myself in negativity -- you are quite right that doesn't get people anywhere, which is why that wasn't the point of my comment. I like to be a part of the solution; not the problem. Sorry if that wasn't clear. But, I just want to let you know, I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way. In fact, I, myself, was tired of the negative news cycle elsewhere that that is what led me to find positive (and highly factual/detailed) sources, the previously posted BYU article and a truly inspired devotional: https://youtu.be/6cfRvJ-q0ag I don't possess the audacity to think my words (and I never thought my words would) aid in keeping your peers in the Church, but I think those sources might. Give them a chance if you want. I know, for me at least, it was a productive endeavor to read/watch them. It didn't make me feel better about myself, but it made me feel more confident about my ability to answer tough questions from a church sanctioned source.
Also, I am highly interested in hearing your ideas about what you think will aid your peers? What are some approaches you can come up with?
Please don't feel compelled to respond if you're uncomfortable or simply don't want to (no response is necessary and no offense will be taken), but the door is open should you care to share your thoughts. I do believe many of us would be interested since you are among the demographic of which this concerns and have some strong opinions. We understand, however, if you prefer not to.
Anyway, just wanted to say, I come in "peace." �� I'm not sure that my emojis are working, but that's supposed to be a smile.
I am not sure how much I have read on Reddit. I like learning about Church growth, the One belonging to Jesus Christ. How is the growth in Portuguese countries of Africa? What is the Church presence of Nepal? Which state in the U.S. will next have 100 k members? Or a temple? Or a new stake? Where are the highest baptizing missions? All of it fascinating. Some of it is disappointing. Whoops! I messed up my print…
I think one of the problems we face when trying to bring people back, or to keep them here is our focus on church attendance. We focus so much on this outcome variable that we don’t focus on what is most important and what will boost attendance. It is the Spirit that matters most. If we focus on helping people feel the spirit and to remember times when they’ve felt it that’s when they come back.
It’s kind of weird, but the only time I ever think about leaving the church is when I’m listening to a talk about staying in the church.
Help people (including ourselves) to feel the Spirit, and they will feel loved, they will feel wanted. Sometimes they might even feel this way towards the other members. But they will feel loved and wanted by God and by Christ and that is more powerful than any logical machination we can come up with.
@Matt, thanks for the information. I absolutely agree that low marriage rates and low fertility rates are the two big crises, which mirrors what is happening around the globe. And low marriage rates are a double whammy since married young adults, especially men, are more likely to stay active than single young adults (though that could partly be selection effects).
@Eduardo, an elder who served in the same mission as me (though we were never companions) is from Nepal. There is a branch in Kathmandu, and they do pretty well at member missionary work and have quite a few returned missionaries but unfortunately Nepal is pretty restrictive in terms of religious freedom, especially with regards to proselyting, so there are no full-time missionaries there. The church also has had a pretty sustained LDS Charities presence there, although covid may have temporarily derailed that.
Just a general inquiry. Has anyone else noticed that this week was the 1st in as long as I can remember that the Church leadership has not posted, neither in the Newsroom site, nor the Church News site, the weekly Temples Stages update? I know a great many of the 170 operating temples are currently in Stage 3 of operation. And none that are in Stage 4 as far as I can guess. It is hard to believe there are no changes or updates in status this week, that is usually reported on both sites on Tuesday mornings in recent weeks. Previously on Mondays.
Christopher Duerig, both the Newsroom and the Church News put out updates when there are updates to put out. I'd suggest you look at the latest Church News update:
One paragraph thereof specifically and categorically states that, since so many temples are in phase 3, and since it could be a while until there are new updates to provide, those updates will ONLY be published as needed going forward. So if there's nothing to report, there will be no updates.
The trouble with only reading one source for the relevant information is that both the Church News and the Newsroom present the same updates, but there are details in the Church News that are not in the Newsroom release, and the opposite is true as well. So you can look for updates to be released in both place when there are updates to report. Hope that answers your question.
I just wanted to pass along an update from my previously-offered thoughts about the timing that might come into play for upcoming temple dedications or rededications. There is currently a Level 4 (Do Not Travel) warning in effect for Brazil, Ecuador, and Cabo Verde:
Additionally, there is a Level 3 (Reconsider Travel) advisory for New Zealand currently, which is why the Church still has not announced a rededication for the Hamilton New Zealand Temple:
I am not sure what all of this means, but it could mean the Church might postpone the opening of the Rio de Janeiro Brazil Temple, and may hold off on setting opening arrangements for the Quito, Yigo, Praia, and Belem temples until the travel advisory phase is green again. The same with temple rededications in Hamilton New Zealand and Tokyo Japan.
That being said, it seems likely the Church might be able to go ahead with the Columbus Ohio Temple when that is ready, and that it will not be a problem to have the Helena Montana, Saratoga Springs Utah, and other US Temples dedicated as they are completed. I will try to keep an eye out for any changes on the travel advisories and keep you all in the loop on that. My thanks once again to you all.
Matt mentioned that there has been an acceleration in members moving to Utah from other states in the past few years. Is there anything similar (even if smaller in scale) in parts of the world outside of the United States? Are there places members flock to in other countries, perhaps to live near the temple or to be in a place where their children can have some other member friends at school or for other reasons?
I have noticed that many retirees move back to Utah after a full career away from it. I have seen this from Washington, California, Virginia, and elsewhere. Sometimes one of them is from Utah originally, or sometimes both. The kids were raised outside, often.
Considering that we have an apostle native to Brazil, I imagine the schedule could be lied to here if he is assigned to the dedications in his home country.
Daniel, Elder Soares did dedicate the Fortaleza Brazil Temple in 2019, but Elder Gary E. Stevenson has been assigned to preside at the Rio de Janeiro dedication, since he is the only member of the Quorum of the Twelve who has not yet personally presided over a temple dedication. But the information I found yesterday (which noted Brazil was in a phase 4: Do Not Travel status) also noted that even native Brazilians were being discouraged from trying to enter Brazil for the present time. Could things change between now and the dedication, which is planned for May? Of course. But based on the fact that phase 4 is the highest restrictionary phase for international travel, unless Brazil is downgraded to phase 2 or 1 by 2-3 weeks from the scheduled beginning of the open house for Rio de Janeiro (which is set to begin on March 26), it may be wiser all around for the Church to delay that. But in the latest COVID-19 update from the First Presidency today, area presidencies are being encouraged to consult with government leaders and medical experts to determine the best course of action (and any associated COVID-19 restrictions or guidelines) for each of the Church's 22 areas. So things are very much in flux, and I'll be interested to see what the determination is for the Brazil Area.
For those curious, the latest update from the First Presidency on COVID-19, which instruct area presidencies to consult with qualified professionals, then make the decisions that would be in the best interests of the Saints in each area, is available through both the Newsroom and the Church News:
I do believe we are approaching Phase 4 and may get there for the first locations perhaps as early as this General Conference (it's very possible that it gets announced there over the pulpit in my opinion). There are a few reasons I can think of:
- The Church is increasingly lagging behind state and national governments in returning to normalcy, including governments which have a history of caution and giving a lot of credence to health professionals. I've said earlier that it makes relatively little sense to require reservations to attend the temple when other parts of daily life where the risk of contageon is probably higher (like restaurants) operate without any safeguards from infection. Such has been the case for many months in some places and should be the case almost everywhere in the western world in the next couple of months. - Many temples around the world are already serving a pre-Covid number of patrons right now, and moving them from Phase 3 to 4 would not make temples less safe from that standpoint, either. - I wonder how many appointments have recently been cancelled, given the Omicron surge and exposure rules. Personally I've cancelled four of my last five appointments to travel to Indianapolis or St. Louis on relatively short notice, although two of those have been due to snow and ice storms and my worry about resulting freeway closures/being unable to make it home after the session. One was because my wife was feeling sick (not Covid as turns out) and another was due to me being exposed at work (although I kept going to work and live normally per Health Department and CDC guidance). Each time something like this happens, and I'm sure it's very common, it deprives somebody else of attending the temple - unless they live close enough to just spontaneously take the appointment on short notice. For the most part, it's pretty unnecessary, and I can definitely see the benefit of giving people the opportunity to attend spontaneously again as soon as possible.
Dear James, you are right. I had forgotten that the assignment had already been given to Elder Stevenson. However, remember that the government of Brazil and Rio are denialists and very careless with regard to the pandemic, which motivates the restriction of the American government. Let's wait for the next events, hoping that everything goes as expected, since I'm planning to travel 8 hours myself to visit the temple.
Chris Brown: it is natural to want to do opposite of what we know is right, when we hear it over and over. Eat right, sleep right, save money, don’t speed, don’t, don’t, don’t, do, do, do. Lehi and Nephi talked of the rod of Iron. If we hear that sermon too much I guess the natural tendency would be to let go and wander.
We are about 9 weeks from conference. Is there a temple for Mongolia yet? That place has slowed down lately…
@Unknown In Europe the tempels definitly draw member to them over time. Examble of that are Chorley (Preston England Temple), Friedrichtsdorf (Frankfurt Germany Temple), Zollikofen (Bern Switzerland Temple). I am shure there are others. Estern Europe is specially loosing active members to the US (UTAH). A friend of mine servied in Ukraine during the Krim crisis (2014). He serve in Odessa. He saied that around 12 strong member families left Odessa for the US, Canada, Western Europe (in that order) during that time and that this was the reason why they had to close 2 branches. My wife is from Albania and acording to her more active members left Albania for the US than there currently are in Albania.
"Two notable civil and human rights leaders will deliver forum addresses as part of the year’s forum theme: “Creating a Beloved Community.”
The two Black leaders will speak at the Latter-day Saint school just months after the church pledged $9 million toward scholarships for Black students and humanitarian aid for Black inner-city communities."
If members move to be close to a temple, will they attend it more?
Not sure if it happens at all temples but a temple president once said that the ones who lived close to the one he served at were the least likely to attend.
An area seventy recently said in eastern Washington state that people were gathering to be near Spokane, and that assumedly ore-pandemic that temple was regularly packed to the gills. I think that is why Moses Lake initially, and he thought a second temple in the Spokane metro was likely at some point.
My stake sponsored an adult religion class where we reviewed the essays. A general authority told Church Educational teachers and administrators that they should know the essays Luke the back of their hand.
They are easily accessible is the gospel library app, which is held by far more people than would ever purchase any published volume.
If there is a low level of coverage of them it is only because The Church has published so much material in the last decade.
Also, the First Presidency no longer dies monthly messages.
There is no "embedded racism in the Book of Mormon". People have written we researched articles that show that the "skin of blackness" spoken of in Alma is the very skin that in the verse before we were told the Lamanites wore on themselves.
You are totally out of line for your hateful attacks on so many good people
I am tired of people like Brett Sterling being allowed to engage in baseless character assassination of past church members. The first president of my stake participated in a fair housing act support March in 1964.
People like Brett use baseless wolf crying words to try and judge people of the past by present standards.
It is hateful, hurtful, demeaning and devisive rhetoric which clearly shows a total disconnect from theived e periences of African-Americans in the present.
I live in an inner city branch with an African-American wife. The reasons that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints struggles to grow in inner cities have absolutely nothing to do with past Church policies.
They have everything to do with current societal actions, levels of cross cultural interaction, and related issues.
The solution to our issues is never going to be in added statements about the past. It may be in bold moves towards the future. Things such as the vision of growth Elder Clark Gilbert mentioned in his talk.
It may also be found in the BYU-Pathway program.
None of the gospel topics essays were in any way signed. So that gripe is a total canard.
Moses Lake is also supposed to relieve Columbia River. My mother-in-law is (barely) in Yakima stake and there are rumblings that it will go to Moses Lake, along with Selah stake and the stakes above I-90 that currently go to Columbia River. (I think she will still go to Columbia River, which is also overcrowded, since it's much closer for her.)
Referring to a previous topic on this thread, here are some lectures by Hugh Nibley that I've found helpful in understanding the use of the terms "black" and "white" in the Book of Mormon, and how they relate to the book's Egyptian and Hebrew cultural heritage. I thought some of you might find them interesting, as well.
https://youtu.be/m2vQtYRpkZ4?t=1792 (video starts @29:52 - he stays on this topic for about 5 minutes)
https://youtu.be/z6kQAB-fmPk (the first 5 minutes)
https://youtu.be/7GXGQLuKaao?t=2420 (video starts @40:20 - he stays on this topic for about 5 minutes)
JPL, Brett Stirling is a long-time commenter here and on the threads of my blog. His contributions in both places are always well thought-out, and your comment objecting to his "character assassination" could in and of itself be considered a "character assassination" of Brett Stirling. Two wrongs do not make a right. You know that from your recent editing restrictions on Wikipedia. I strongly suggest that, before speaking I'll of anyone anywhere, that you take a deep breath, think carefully, then measure your response very carefully. I respect you both, but your characterization of Brett Stirling is dead wrong and shouldn't have been posted with that substance and tone. With all due respect, you're wrong on this.
JPL, Brett Stirling makes frequent valid contributions here, and you have grossly mischaracterized him. Calling out someone's "character assassination" in the substance and tone you used could be construed as a "character assassination" of the one you're calling out for doing the same thing. This is the same type of reaction that led to your being "topic blocked" on Wikipedia recently. With all due respect, I suggest that the next time you are tempted to be uncivil here or on Wikipedia that you stop, step away for a time, take deep breaths, and then react I'd you fe that is still necessary. Comment on topics, not individuals. It's something I have to do myself from time to time.
135 comments:
Part of me wonders if the declines of stakes and congregations in some areas of the US will be met with growth in other areas. For example, your letter states that Michigan has been losing congregations for a while, but so has the population of Michigan as a whole. It would be interesting to see if the growth in Florida, Texas, Tennessee, and Arizona of the church would mirror the population growth in each respective area as a whole.
Great report, Matt! Thanks for your ongoing diligent efforts and attention to such developments. In the last several days, I've taken time to look back on where the Church was in certain aspects in 2017 and 2018 vs. where it is now, and I can see why President Nelson has said that the work is moving forward at an accelerated pace. I can't wait to see what's next!
I have not been able to substantiate this report, but it was rumored that the Czech Slovak mission was goosed out on baptisms for the entire year of 2021. If true, this is the first time that I have ever heard of a mission getting blanked for an entire calendar year.
But I have also heard of other missions baptizing quite a few more people recently, mostly in Africa and Latin America. Turkey added another congregation last year; the Antalya branch.
Michigan lost lots of congregations in the 2008-2012 time frame. Sine then the number has remained fairly stable. If there has been any loss since 2013 it has been in the rural northern parts of the state. They have also been small branches.
My branch is consistently getting over 80 people. We just got a new Melchizedek priesthood holder and are about to get another one.
We are almost at the level where we might have a prospect to be made a ward.
The Palmer Park branch has returned to meeting in Detroit. They are meeting in a leased building. Hopefully soon plans will be put in place to upgrade then to a church-built building and being a ward.
If Belle Isle and Palmer Park could reach ward status, we would be on path to getting another stake in metro Detroit.
This might be a long term goal. Another hope is Southfield Ward might be divisible now that it has its own building.
I saw one website say the Saint Louis Branch is in Abijan. I much appreciate the accurate information here.
@John The Paw Paw Branch in the Kalamazoo Michigan Stake was upgraded to a Ward yesterday.
We now have 'My Covenant Path', related to the New and Returning Members form for leaders and the new member.
They started work on this in 2019 and tested it in the North America Central Area or at least some parts of it.
Leaders have access to training videos and other resources, the big reason for all of it is the facts I was able to discover:
67 percent of newly baptized members are active after a year
32 percent of newly baptized members are active after 2 years
And only 10 percent of members are still active after 10 years.
It is obvious they needed to do something, they are hoping this will somewhat better these numbers. We will still have some that don't stay active but they are looking for substantial improvement anyway.
An article written and published in local pages sent with the Liahona to some parts of Africaa;
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/09/afs-eng-local-pages/local-news-005?lang=eng
The 10 year activity rate among converts is lower than I would have expected -- based on what I have seen, I would have guessed more like 20-25%. I wonder if the church has explored possible relationships between low retention and member missionary work. It is not hard to imagine that many members who share the gospel with friends who then are baptized only to watch them later distance themselves from the church become discouraged and reluctant to share the gospel with other friends.
Could be overall, and not just US numbers, which in some areas are better. It was mentioned in priesthood session of general conference in October 2013 that in Osaka, Japan, the number on home teaching percentage was like 7 percent.
The focus of this new program also does include ministering, both by the new member an to the new member. Not sure what else although family history has been shown in other settings to play a crucial role, that is already on the new and returning member form.
"7 February 2022 - Dubai News
Sikhs and Latter-day Saints in UAE Join for Annual Service Project Interfaith Collaboration in Dubai"
https://news-middleeast.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/sikhs-and-latter-day-saints-in-united-arab-emirates-join-together-for-annual-service-project
Thank you for sharing.
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Groundbreaking date set, rendering and location released for Bahía Blanca Argentina Temple
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2022-02-09/bahia-blanca-argentina-temple-groundbreaking-date-rendering-location-released-242090
Matt, the comment from James Williams between the two most recent ones from Christopher Duerig may be spam. I'm not sure, so I'd defer to your judgement on that. Thanks gain.
Jim Anderson - Do you have a specific reference for the videos where those convert retention statistics were reported? I would love to see these if possible.
In a recent years local training, the point was made that the difference between someone staying active or not was whether they were able to have their own witness from the spirit, and that by preparing the converts to go to the temple to perform baptisms for their own ancestors as soon as they themselves were baptized, was the critical key. Basically spend more time preparing the individuals before baptism so that they can go to the temple immediately upon being baptized and then receive the endowment at 1 year in (as age appropriate).
Don't have the video but it was a stake conference in WA state, those go often very soon after they are broadcast but they usually only are up a few days but some do stay up longer.
It is known that if a member has attended the temple soon after baptism, and preferably with their own ancestral names, that many more stay active than otherwise would. They found this out in Sacramento over 20 years ago where they emphasized the temple. Sacramento got its own temple soon after.
actually and sadly 2020 was the smallest growth since the 1857 2021 was only slighly better . worse Still are the lowest retention rates among the youth of the church. true most churches have it worse but frankly the future growth of the church outside of Africa looks bleak.
While helping converts attend the temple is important, one thing never discussed or examined is how church culture or dysfunctional ward dynamics deter new members from staying.
Leaders like to focus on doctrine as the cure all, but it's really the social aspect that makes all the difference.
@Matt:
Well said. The social aspect is one of the 3 things President Hinckley mentioned when he spoke about retaining converts.
“Every Convert Is Precious”
Insight and counsel from President Gordon B. Hinckley
Every convert needs “a friend, a responsibility, and nurturing with ‘the good word of God.’”
It is not an easy thing to become a member of this Church. In most cases it involves setting aside old habits, leaving old friends and associations, and stepping into a new society which is different and somewhat demanding.
“With the ever-increasing number of converts, we must make an increasingly substantial effort to assist them as they find their way. Every one of them needs three things: a friend, a responsibility, and nurturing with ‘the good word of God’ (Moro. 6:4). It is our duty and opportunity to provide these things.”
“I am hopeful that a great effort will go forward throughout the Church, throughout the world, to retain every convert who comes into the Church.”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1999/02/every-convert-is-precious?lang=eng
Culture has an impact on retention of lifelong members, too. While it is highly inaccurate to suggest that most people leave because they're "offended," religion is a social thing by definition, and faith is much easier to maintain if the people you share it with aren't making you miserable. Even people with severe doubts about church teachings and history are far more likely to tolerate them and stick around if they feel loved and happy at church. Personally, I have many friends in my ward right now and no complaints about the social aspects there, but the church culture at least in the US is increasingly becoming something I want nothing to do with. And attempts by leadership to scare young people out of leaving instead of taking their concerns seriously, like Brad Wilcox's recent fireside, are going to have the opposite effect. It's pushed me halfway out the door and I know of others for whom it was the final straw.
This is a little off topic, but has anyone ever wondered if there will ever be more than 15 Apostles again? The last time it happened was in 1981 when President Hinckley was called to serve as 3rd Counselor in the First Presidency (due to health issues of Presidents Kimball, Tanner, and Romney). And the last Apostle who did not serve in the Quorum of the Twelve was Alvin R. Dyer, who served in the First Presidency from 1968-1970. There have also been Counselors and an Associate to the Quoruom of the Twelve, all of whom were ordained Apostles.
Just curious if this similar situation will ever occur again, or if we've come to a point where this will no longer be needed.
@Unknown, yes, the next time a 16th apostle is scheduled to be added is July 12, 2027.
In seriousness, obviously no one knows if or when that will ever happen again, but I think if the circumstances called for it (e.g. ill health among several members of the First Presidency), then it would be justified again. We are lucky to have such a healthy First President now, especially considering President Nelson's age. On April 16, 2022, he will become the oldest living prophet in this dispensation (surpassing Gordon B. Hinckley), and on August 9, 2022 he will become the oldest living apostle in this dispensation (surpassing David B. Haight). He will turn 98 on September 9th. I would not be surprised to see him reach 100 or beyond.
"Church works toward official recognition in Gambia, West Africa"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/global/2022-02-11/gambia-africa-church-members-religious-freedom-official-recognition-242729
Were there negative aspects of Brad Wilcox’s talk? Is he a Seventy? Right?
People go less active for many reasons, combinations of them.
I met a brother from Gambia recently, last name Njie, Pronounced EN- JEYE (rhymes with EYE).
Surprised no one has mentioned this yet:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/april-2022-general-conference-details
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2022-02-11/april-2022-general-conference-womens-session-limited-tickets-available-242718
My analysis on that:
https://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com/2022/02/breaking-news-april-general-conference.html
My thanks once again to you all.
Second Counselor in the Young Men General Presidency. He mentioned some information about the timing of the priesthood revelation to which people took exception, given the fact that the Church acknowledged in the essay about that restriction remaining in place due to some degree of racism. So they are criticizing Brother Wilcox for his remarks on the timing. But his critics conveniently forgot that lifting the restrictions was also attempted in the 50s and 60s, without sufficient apostolic support. So I actually agree with the idea that the timing was important for the right group of apostles to ask the right questions to get the right answer. Brother Wilcox's remarks were not meant to offend, and he doesn't deserve the flack he's getting on the matter. Hope that clarifies this situation.
Among other areas, California has lost 3 wards so far this year 2022, in Redlands, Danville and Lake Forest. And Norway recently closed the Alesund Branch.
James, if it wasn’t an issue then the Church wouldn’t have forced him to issue an apology and BYU wouldn’t have issued their own statement expressing concerns about his comments. This is not the first time he has mentioned this exact frame of thoughts either. This wasn’t a slip of the tongue or a poorly executed concept to be clarified. There is footage of him using the exact same comments 4 years ago, given the insistence on using it again could indicate it has been said before many times, but now we have it on film and people are concerned on where this type of thinking is going in the Church.
In regards to the essays, that is a little disingenuous as the Church has neither a) made known publicly of their existence and location for reference or b) included all of the essays addressing difficult topics in the church wide curriculum to be studied and understood by the members. Those essays if included in regular lessons for adults and youth would start a healing conversation.
Brett, if what you said about the fact that he reiterated something he previously said is true, then obviously his apology was needed in this latest slip. I was unaware of his previous opinions on this matter because I only started following him when his posts were featured in the latest editions of "This Week on Social". Of course, being a General Officer this time around would lead to more scrutiny on the matter. And I had obviously not been aware of his previous posts.
Additionally, Brett, not sure where you got the information that the essays are not available publicly. I have repeatedly found and read more than a few of them by following this link:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays?lang=eng
I had thought it was available in print form, but I was incorrect about that. But each Gospel Topic Essay was included on that site as soon as the addition thereof was approved by top Church leaders. Sorry you were unaware of that. The Church actually did announce the completion of the last of those essays and where to find them, but that was more than 6 years ago:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/new-church-essays-women-priesthood-mother-in-heaven
I assume they will be available in a future physical manual which can be procured at the Church's online store, but that has not yet happened. But they've been available to any who searched for them for at least the last 6 years. And because they've been available that long, any classes that would have discussed them would have been discontinued per the following announcement:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/changes-help-balance-gospel-instruction-at-home-and-at-church?lang=eng
The announcement specifically mentioned the following statement: The Gospel Principles course will be discontinued. All members and interested friends will be invited to attend their respective adult or youth Sunday School class. The Church later clarified that other courses that might take youth or adults away from attending their Sunday School or Gospel Doctrine were discontinued as "alternate" Sunday School clases. So for now, the best option is to study them online. I've read a fair few of them myself. Again, sorry you weren't aware of the availability of the letters before now.
People also took exception to Brother Wilcox's patronizing comments about women and the priesthood, and his demeaning attitude toward other churches. He said that everyone else in the world except us is just "playing church" because they "don't have God's permission". Obviously we do teach that we're the "only true and living church," but we can be a lot more respectful in how we teach that, and less dismissive of the great amount of truth and goodness in other faiths (not even just Christian churches). Preach My Gospel straight-up says that Confucius, Mohammed, and the Buddha were inspired by God. Not just that they did the best they could, but that they were inspired by God. It would be absurd for God to try to do *everything* through one church that constitutes .02% of the world's population. We should even learn from other faiths that are better at some things than we are. Matt has pointed out many times that Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and multiple Protestant groups have far more successful missionary programs than we do. Doubling down on an "us vs. everyone else" worldview just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Christopher, as I stated above, I had been unaware of what Brother Wilcox specifically said most recently, and I wasn't aware of anything he had said that similarly led to past times when he came under fire. I have only been aware of his public statements and comments since the Church News started sharing regular reports of social media posts for general officers of the Church. As I acknowledged in my last comment, I did not realize this had happened so much in the past, and his recent public statements would likely receive additional scrutiny in view of his now serving in the Young Men General Presidency. I wouldn't hold it against him that the apology may have fallen short. I still think the second verse of the hymn "Lord, I Would Follow Thee" is applicable in this case, and I think it would be wise for all of us to remove the beams out of our own eyes before attempting to try to cast the mote out of Brother Wilcox's eye. As Elder Bednar put it in his October 2006 General Conference talk: "To be offended is a choice we make; it is not a condition inflicted or imposed upon us by someone or something else." So for my part, I'm choosing not to be offended. I myself have chosen to take offense to the societal problem of "cancel culture." The fact of the matter is that, even if he has given "offensive" remarks prior to his current calling, dredging up something from someone's past to justify the choice of being more offended in a current case where there's a higher degree of scrutiny now. Since "all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God", I'm not comfortable passing a present or past negative judgement on anyone. I have no room to do so. As the Savior said, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone." I don't know your situation, Christopher, but if someone were to scrutinize my past statements on Facebook or in my blog posts or comments, someone could almost certainly drudge up at least one, but probably more, things that I've posted in the public domain that, for whatever reason, has not aged well. Other people are free to make their own calls on this matter, but for myself, it's not a call I feel qualified to make. Hope that futher clarifies where I'm coming from.
Some religions are much less centralized so there is not as much pressure on the one narrative, like the Church of Jesus Christ, to hold up to criticism.
Petty stuff gets a lot of people down or turned off.
Celebrate good times! If things like this keep up there may be a way to reconfigure the Holland, Grand Rapids, Lansing and Kalamazoo stakes so we get a 5th stake in that area. It also gives me more hope for a Grand Rapids Temple.
Endowment is a good thing. I have known of people who went after a year but were not really prepared and did not like it and then went inactive, or in the case of my step grandmother, had her name removed from the records of the Church.
I think we need to make sure that people are fully prepared for the endowment. 1 year works for some, I know a few very stalwart sisters in my branch who literally went on the day 1 year after their baptism. Others take longer. A brother in my branch baptized about 3 years ago was just ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood.
We need to ensure people are spiritually ready and engaged.
Another example is the Sunday School president I am a counselor to. He was baptized at some point in 2017. He had major issues with substance abuse and addiction. He was in ARP. He made it to the temple for his own endowment in July of 2021, the week before Detroit Temple shut for a 4 month minor remodel mainly of the entry. So roughly 3 and a half years after he was baptized.
The key is helping people move forward. Elder Gilbert's general conference talk said some key things on this matter. I am sure if he had the time he could have spent hours giving us the details on the process and shown that the end results were not always even believable.
I remember in the MTC being in a very large meeting with President Nixon who was my district president. He had been mission president in the mission in Wisconsin. He was a truly relic of another age as he served his first mission as a young married man, leaving his wife behind at home. He asked how long someone had to wait to go to the temple after baptism. Many shouted of out a year. Scott Lantz, who was from my stake and endowed in the Detrout Temple the same day as me, this was the first time two people got endowed in the Detroit Temple the same day who were headed to the same mission. To be fair it was also 7 months after the Detroit Temple was dedicated. Anyway Elder Lantz was the only who shouted out you could go immediately to do baptisms. Brother Nixon then proceeded to tell us how in Wisconsin taking people to do baptisms helped get much better retention rates.
President Hinckley's story about the guy he converted who went inactive did not at all suggest doctrine was the only issue.
He clearly was showing that the way you treat someone matters. So basically talking about dysfunctional culture.
Some things I read suggest yo me that President Hinckley found ways to involve the quorum of the 12 in some things the First Presidency had previously handled, making it eiser to function even if the 1st presidency was not at full health. The passage I read did not give any examples.
Before President Nelson almost all temple dedications were done by members of the 1st presidency. He has clearly broadened it to the full 12.
60 years ago most new stakes were organized by 2 members of the 12. Today it is most often a general authority seventy and an area seventy.
There are ways the burden placed on the 12 has been spread out to try to not require there to be more.
However there could be more called at some point. Predicting the future is not my Forte.
For example I have only once ever made a specific prediction that an existing general authority would not be called to the 12. That was predicting Elder Gong would not become a member of the 12. Considering most general authorities do not get called to the 12, the fact I got my one ordination wrong takes really not being good at making predictions.
The best evidence is that David O. McKay did not feel he had a,clear revelatory mandate to lift the restriction and some apostles felt there was a need for a clear revelatory mandate.
Remarks by Elder Legrand R. Curtis, a general authority and Church Historian, at the 50th anniversary celebration of Genesis Group, from a journal I think of a mission resident, suggest that at least as early as 1974 President Kimvall was regularly pleading with the Lord on the matter of when to lift the priesthood restriction.
I will not even urss as to why it took 4 years of regularly pleading with the Lord to feel confident on moving forward. What is clear is this was neither a rushed thing nor that at least President Kimball had not heavily thought on the matter.
You are the one being disingenuous. The essay on race and the priesthood was linked from the Come Follow Me Curriculum.
What I find disingenuous about some responses to Brother Wilcox's remarks is that they ate done without considering how the fact that he is second counselor in a general young men presidency where the first counselor is a black man impacts things. Especially a black man that is married to a white women that to the many racists is the worst outrage.
Also the fact that people are not obliged to calculate in their diatribes that President Nelson spoke at the national convention of the NAACP, or that he issued a joint statement in the summer of 2020 with top leaders of the NAACP, or that the Church just started a $9 million joint project with the NAACP and the UNCF, or that President Nelson publicly spoke of his friendship with Amos Brown on ML King day, or comments by Elder Cook and Presidents Nelson and Oaks in conference and President Oaks at BYU which was the last first presidency devotional at BYU, and I could go on.
The fact of the matter is I am over 40 years old and was born after Offucial Declaration 2 was issued, and too many people act as if we are still in the time and era when it was issued when we are not. As a senior in high school in the north suburbs of Detroit my high school guidance counselor who was a liberal who loathed Rush Limbaugh so much she refused to drink Florida orange juice because the Florida orange growers advertised on Limbaugh's show, gave me a one on one lecture on the inadvisability of marrying a black woman. No church leader ever gave me such counsel. The advice from the counselor may have been prompted by my writing 2 stories for creative writing class where my main character was a white man who married a black woman. One was set at BYU in the spring of 1978. The other was set in 1999 (the present then) Detroit and involved a white fire fighter with a black wife. At that time all Detroit employees had to live in the city. My church leaders did not feel the need to counsel me on such matters even though they saw me actually dancing with a black young woman on occasion, something my school leaders never observed.
There was a family history training center, the only one in the Church, that operated out of an old Seminary building across from the defunct and now bulldozed Farrer Junior High in Provo.
It was at that location were I heard him talk extensively about temple attendance by new converts, he apparently also did this in Sacramento. The Church saw this and so it is on the New and Returning Member form since maybe 2005.
They had to move the center to Orem near the Frontrunner station, but closed it for good when the missionary surge hit then UVU expanded, the reason for the move to Orem was black mold was found in the Seminary building.
Early post-baptism temple attendance is clearly a plus. Even more so if paired with someone doing their own family history.
The essays which are not attributed or signed off by any of the FP or Q12 leave more questions than answers. The issue with the priesthood ban on people of African heritage still hasn’t been adequately dealt with. The embedded racism in the Book of Mormon hasn’t been dealt with, nor have the many “theories” pushed forward for over the years by senior leaders to why the doctrine was necessary until 1978. There was no prophesy or revelation required for the initial ban, yet leaders feel it was required to undo it. Why? Honesty towards historical issues is required. Disavowing this policy for what it was, a product of a racist and bigoted era is required. This Church, for which both sides of my family have been in since the 1880’s will continue to fade away until significant changes are made on historical issues and current doctrinal practises and policies.
Wrong again, Brett. The main page of the manual itself says: "Recognizing that today so much information about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can be obtained from questionable and often inaccurate sources, officials of the Church began in 2013 to publish straightforward, in-depth essays on a number of topics. The purpose of these essays, which have been approved by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has been to gather accurate information from many different sources and publications and place it in the Gospel Topics section of ChurchofJesusChrist.org, where the material can more easily be accessed and studied by Church members and other interested parties.
"The Church places great emphasis on knowledge and on the importance of being well informed about Church history, doctrine, and practices. Ongoing historical research, revisions of the Church’s curriculum, and the use of new technologies allowing a more systematic and thorough study of scriptures have all been pursued by the Church to that end. We again encourage members to study the Gospel Topics essays cited in the links below as they 'seek learning, even by study and also by faith.'
Had you done more research on the gospel topics essays, you would have found information demonstrating that the essays were written by Church History scholars, both from among Church members and from friends of other faiths. As they crafted each essay, samples of each would be reviewed by a select group of general authorities, eventually including those who serve in the Curriculum Department. After their suggestions had been made and included, each essay was then submitted to the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, where the First Presidency had final approval on each. They would not be included with the Church curriculum without that approval.
Again, all of this information can be confirmed by researching more about the process whereby the essays were crafted and approved. The First Presidency has always had the final say on what is included in curriculum materials, and this was no different. With all due respect, you've now made two erroneous claims about the essays that can be verified as incorrect if you research these matters yourself. I'd strongly encourage anyone with further concerns about those essays to ask the Lord to inspire that research about them. Until that happens, we are likely to see incorrect claims floating about.
Brett, you know me well enough by now to know how much I respect you and value your feedback, both here and on my blog. But the last two or three comments I shared in reply to your recent incorrect claims suggests to me that you need to do more research on these essays before commenting further about them. I hope you will, and if you do so, I know the Lord can bless your efforts. He has blessed mine. That's why, 6 years after their publication, I have access to information in responding to your concerns. And your earnest research on this will verify the particulars I laid out here. Happy searching.
@Brett: I agree that matters of race have not been fully dealt with. In fact, many, many things haven’t been fully dealt with. I wonder how the different races came to be.
@ everyone: I have many curiosities about how the plan of salvation works, and I enjoy increasing my knowledge by study and by faith. I have learned directly from the Lord about things consistent with official church doctrine, but may or may not be official church doctrine. I keep these things as tentative understandings. There is so much yet to be revealed. I do not know why more has not been revealed faster, or why the Lord sometimes gives me direction in fulfilling my ministering and callings and sometimes no direction comes. I am not always certain the degree to which my premonitions are from God vs my own desires. I am not always happy when the church prioritizes some things over others. I wonder what God thinks about climate change and whether the Prophet has any thoughts on this personally and / or as Seer. I wonder if there are things even more important than race relations that are being neglected. I wonder whether the revealing of things would be faster if the general church membership were more righteous. I wonder so many things. But I know with more certainty than anything else that Jesus Christ’s is the head of the church and he knows what he is doing. I often forget that God’s priorities don’t coincide with the topics interesting to me that I learn alot about :-)
But know this: everything will be made known eventually to those who seek Jesus.
@ Brett: I suspect some people who comment on this blog are on the spectrum or otherwise struggle with communicating softly. Please forgive us.
There is are a couple of essays about the Priesthood, including one focused on race and another focusing on how women have access to and can utilize priesthood power. I loved those particularly.
Anonymous, I am not necessarily on the spectrum (that I know of). Brett Stirling has been a longtime friend who greatly contributes to discussions here and on my own blog. He and I have developed a good relationship over the years, so he knows where I'm coming from. I can only be as blunt and direct as I was above with family and very good friends. I apologize to any who may be offended by my recent exchange with Brett, but hope he knows that I'm only that blunt and direct with the people who matter most to me.
I think “communicating softly” is an interesting way to express the idea of sharing ideas and opinions.
Some things are bold and exaggerated, bluster and balloons hoo.
Many things and people may or will wither away, but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will fulfill every true prophecy that is promised to and pronounced upon it.
Best be on the right side of the Lord and His Faith, I say.
Direct and assertive, I call that view.
Get on the bus! Board the Good ship Zion, no matter your background.
I meant to write “bally hoo”, sorry.
What will be the next African nation to open to the Gospel after the Gambia?
Eduardo, not sure if it will be the next country, but I wouldn't be surpised to the Church open in Sudan in the near future due to the new democratic government installed there.
@Unknown, here is some indication as to that point about Sudan in east Africa.
"22 May 2021 - Salt Lake City
News Release
Sudanese Government Leaders Visit Church Headquarters
Delegation meets with senior Church leaders"
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/eng/article/sudanese-government-leaders-visit-church-headquarters
@Jim Anderson
I used to play soccer back in college in front of the old Farrer school building. Didn’t know they'd finally torn it down. Did they build anything nice in its place?
That whole property including the fields has apartments now. The old high school itself is being used for School of Fine Arts classes at BYU once they start to tear down and rebuild the HFAC, the new high school is out by the Provo Airport but far enough back that planes on short final do not have to worry about it if the approach is to Runway 19,
James, I do see where you are coming from in regards to approval and publishing essays, but how many of the membership have read them or know they exist? It is not the same as the FP including it in their monthly messages, or releasing a volume of work compiling them and conducting a press event or even better, discussing them across the pulpit in general conference.
I have done my research on them over their staggered release history from the past few years. They need to studied and received by the membership to enable everyone to move on from serious historic issues and false doctrines.
Brett, thanks for your response. I hope you took no offense from my previous comments, because I certainly didn't intend that. I agree that the essays as a resource should be more frequently alluded to by top leadership, but I also have some additional thoughts as well. In an evolving Church with a living prophet who has wasted no time making changes to improve the Church, Church leaders, Church employees, and the volunteers who offer their time are having trouble keeping up with the prophet. It appears no one at any level can do so physically or spirtually. That is both a blessing and a curse. President Nelson has done so much to correct the course of the Church. But anytime a major change or adjustment is announced, those who update and publicize available Church resources are literally scrambling to handle the updates and all that needs to be done.
I have been remarking for over a year now that, with the Temple Department having the responsibility to update the temple list, enough temple developments are occurring frequently enough that it's becoming more impossible to update on a continual basis. You'll note on that list that all temples that had a groundbreaking last year are still listed as "Announced".
Similarly, I had issues accessing several PDF versions of various Church magazines in the last year, wherein that PDF version was not available. Within the last week, I have gotten a few belated replies from the Church Response Team telling me the issues are finally fixed.
The challenge with a living prophet announcing so much in such a short period is that those who don't have the benefit of the smallest degree of a percentage of the energy President Nelson has, especially when the number of staff has not been able to expand fully enough fast enough to meet the ongoing influx, every Church department is currently understaffed. And working for the Church requires prospective employees to meet the highest standards. The COVID-19 pandemic has only exacerbated the problems of understafefing at Church headquarters.
One part of the problem is that a lot of those staffing issues are for positions that require a certain kind of education. I myself could probably easily keep a list of templea current for the Church, but with the possible exception of entry-level positions, working for the Church requires at least a bachelor's degree. So in terms of real-life experience, I'd qualify to keep the list updated, but absent any kind of degree, any application from me for the Temple Department would be rejected for that reason alone, assuming they'd be open to my working remotely.
The Gospel Topics essays, as important a resource as they are, are not able to be properly promoted, published, and distributed, most likely due to the staffing issues I have discribed. But it's also possible that the Curriculum Department is another that has borne the brunt of similar issues. I have a feeling that at some point, both the requirements and parameters of the job qualifications may need to change. With BYU-PW offering certificates of achievement and/or an easier way to earn degrees, hopefully over the next couple of decades, there will be a bigger crop of qualified individuals to fix the short-staffing issues. Hopefully that could happen sooner.
But for now, everyone is having to play catch-up with a 97 year-old man who feels an urgency to move the Church forward with never a backward step, even if that leaves some scrambling to keep up and never quite getting there. And for the record, in saying that, I'd prefer to continue seeing President Nelson move the Church forward, even if so many things take a lesser priority as a result.
At the right time, when it can be made possible, I'm sure the essays will be made available in print, and an active promotion of them will occur in conjunction with that. In the meantime, if there are more important things the Lord needs done in His Church than that, I can hardly blame the Brethren for holding off on that for the time being.
The point is that they are readily available now for anyone who would care to take the time to locate them. I believe the Church mentioned that the essays could be found in 3-4 clicks on the Church website, but I can't swear to that. I do know that sometimes, in the footnotes of the General Conference talks, I have seen a few references to the Gospel Topics essays. Unless I'm mistaken, some over-the-pulpit mentions have been made of them as well.
And if that's the best the Church can do for now, I cannot criticize that. I hope no one else would.
@Jim Anderson
I'd heard they'd bought the old high school and renamed Bulldog Ave. (to "Cougar" Ave., right?), but it's news to me that they're rebuilding the HFAC! I have a lot of fond memories in there (I was an art student).
When are they planning on starting that project?
I looked at the HFAC when I was a student and just thought "Why?" Hopefully the new building will have a much more logical design.
I thought that the Harris Fine Arts Center worked pretty well. Did most of my Theatre Minor there, graduated 1995.
I wonder what the BYU-Idaho arts building looks like.
What Church presence is in Pierre et Miquelon?
@ Johnathan Reese Whiting
They have already started on replacing the HFAC. The new fine arts building is west of the law school where the parking lot used to be. Probably will be done in the next year to 18 months by the looks of it.
Oh, and for the record, the Church discontinued monthly First Presidency messages, as announced in the April 2018 Ensign. As I said, the essays have been used or cited in General Conference talks.
"Brother Wilcox offers a 2nd apology for ‘insensitive and hurtful’ comments"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2022-02-14/brother-brad-wilcox-offers-second-apology-for-insensitive-hurtful-comments-242934
As well he should. The fact that he had incorporated this in previous talks and NOT been called out for it is rather telling. I'm glad that someone called him out on it.
This could have been averted and in a rather simple way, by focusing on the Scriptures and with the concept that it is the Lord who decides who to give His priesthood power too, and there were times of expansion and contraction of this power. It is His power, not our power, so it is not us who makes the rules, but the Lord who makes them.
Bryan, you and I have known each other for a while now. I consider you a good friend, and I know how valuable your comments are here and on my blog. At the same time, with all due respect, I have some concern that your response to the apology, "as well he should", may not be very Christlike or charitable. Brother Wilcox took time to explain that Brother Ahmad Corbitt, whom he serves with in the Young Men General Presidency, and several Black Church members took time to "lovingly counsel and correct" him on this matter. I have a feeling the Savior would have done the same thing as well. In fact, He frequently did that, never condoning sin, but always encouraging the sinner to be better and not repeat their mistakes.
If the Savior were here at the time Brother Wilcox's comments were issued, I think He'd take to social media to counsel us: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone." and only then would he go on to gently counsel and correct Brother Wilcox. "As well he should"? Really? I mentioned in a previous comment that I shudder to think what someoe might dredge up in my future about past things I've said that is chronicled in the public domain. That's one of many reasons I've tapered down my personal usage of social media.
I really do fear that, although Brother Wilcox should be allowed to resume his role in the Young Men presidency and not have to deal with this anymore now that he's set the record straight, that unkind people in a less-than-Christlike way won't be satisfied with either apology, and might not let him move on from this. "Cancel culture" is one of the stupidest things about society today, and it is not in any way Christlike. If we continue to sustain Brother Wilcox in his calling, which we absolutely should do, we'd all be well-advised to let him move past this, and to move on from this.
I for one would very much like to move on to other topics here. There has barely been any acknowledgement of the First Presidency's surprising announcement about the April 2022 General Conference. I would much prefer to talk about that. While I hope that a fair amount of female speakers will be featured, it did occur to me to wonder if perhaps the new model for Saturday Evening Sessions (wherein one apostle and one member of the First Presidency were featured along with at least two GA Seventies. If that happens, since the Relief Society General President serves on the Priesthood and Family Executive Council, I wonder if other members thereof might speak at that time. Among them could be Elders Michael T. Ringwood and Randy D. Funk, who are both on that Executive Council. I believe that Bishop Causse is as well, as is Sister Bingham, who is set to be released as Relief Society General President this Conference. Just some ideas I've been considering, so thanks for indulging me on that subject.
https://www.letterformywife.com/the-letter
This has some excellent primary source references about the history of race and the church. I found it to be in greater detail than the Gospel Topics essays.
Factually, I do not understand his comment of 1829 years without priesthood. Christ and His apostles had the priesthoods after 30 AD, at least till they all died. John the Revelator has had it all the time since, plus the 3 Nephites.
Sure, there was general apostasy, as we know it, for 1700 or so years between the fall of Peter and and the rise of Joseph Smith, but Bro. Wilcox has flawed math as well as reasoning.
I feel for him and wish him and all of us the best.
The Church is not perfect, but the Lord is.
They work together for our good.
I do not wish to be seen as "piling on" Bro. Wilcox" as he has apologized, none of us are perfect, and the Atonement is real and Christ is the foundation of our Gospel and loves everyone. However, just because Bro. Wilcox apologized and I have forgiven him, that doesn't mean I should ignore the incident. This is prime teaching moment. I think other commenters on this blog have expressed a high degree of concern -- not because they're joining social media mobs of "cancel culture" (as I genuinely think most commenters support the leaders and are Christlike), but I think Bro. Wilcox said things that were not only "offensive" and "insensitive" (and let's not downplay it by saying, people are "choosing to be offended." It was objectively offensive), but because, in some cases, he said things not factual regarding the Priesthood -- and he is a Professor of Religion at BYU and in the Young Men's Presidency, who is in the actual business and spiritual business to know better than to teach outdated doctrine to future generations. It's very frustrating/discouraging -- especially in light of the recent strides of the Church (especially Pres. Nelson's with the NAACP) -- but it's eye-opening so we realize that even our professors of religion at BYU are still teaching from outdated platforms. Learning and growing from our mistakes is a painful journey.
I found this to be an excellent resource for learning more about the Priesthood ban history and its remarkable restoration to everyone (because indeed it was a restoration to everyone): https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/spencer-w-kimball-and-the-revelation-on-priesthood/
Not to mention that Elijah Abel's grandsons were ordained to the Priesthood in the 1930's!!
By "everyone" I meant, "all worthy males."
An ironic mistake since I'm a woman in the Church. 😉
I started to look over that source in question, but the minute the author said "the Church is not all it claims to be", it lost me. That is in direct violation of recent prophetic and apostolic assertions that the Church is exactly what it claims to be. Any source that counters prophetic and apostolic declarations right at the outset should not be advanced as "an excellent primary resource" on Church-related matters, especially on a blog that supports the purpose and mission of the Church. Sounds to me like the author is already "on the high road to apostasy":
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-27?lang=eng
Hard pass.
While there may be bullet-points of "facts" (like quotes and excerpts) in this, it is basically an anti-mormon persuasive writing assignment - their go-to handbook - if you will. The pieces of "evidences" are not portrayed accurately on so many topics that it downright annoys me (especially the Archaeology, Book of Abraham, Temple/Freemasonry stuff), but they give the illusion they are doing a fair and thorough assessment. Don't be fooled. If you have questions and concerns, ask, and we will do our best to help you and guide you to more credible sources. Hopefully, we can be be kind about it too. ��
For starters, I linked a very detailed, historical account of the Priesthood ban that demonstrated how the Church has evolved over time and eventually came to an understanding that the ban was not rooted in any doctrine or scriptural basis, but by the "tradition of our father" type of policy. Evolution and change is healthy -- shouldn't be seen as contradictory (as the author of the cite you listed maintained --- for basically everything).
Too early for the prediction of new temples?
@Mon Chou, "everyone" is accurate in a sense because black women during the priesthood ban weren't allowed to receive essential temple ordinances or serve missions either.
We need to give church leaders grace, but we also need to hold them to a higher standard because they influence millions of people and the entire church culture. When I say offensive things, nobody thinks for a moment that I speak for the Church, and probably nobody is going to lose their testimony over it. (And just to be clear, Brad Wilcox's offensive statements about women and other churches were in the same talk. It was a really tonedeaf and uninspired talk.) I actually hope these apologies, imperfect though they are, will set a precedent. Church leaders never publicly apologize for anything, but they should when it's warranted. Regular members are expected to apologize when they wrong somebody. Why should leadership be exempt? Why do we pretend they're perfect even though we claim to understand that they aren't? Why is it frowned upon to acknowledge their mistakes before they're dead?
Quick question, at what point was this comment section a forum for all things related to the church? I thought it was specifically a place to discuss the growth of the church (temples, stakes, wards, etc.) Now please, on behalf everyone quit your childish bickering, if you want to talk about what elder Wilcox said go to reddit. That is what it is for anyways. Nobody here has been enlightened, felt supported, nor uplifted by this complete and utter foolishness and it has now been 3-4 days now that I've had to read your all's off topic comments. I'm also sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, hence why I'm no longer holding my peace.
In summary, please take your discussion of such off topic matters somewhere else. This comment section is not a soap box you are entitled to hijack, even if you already hath done so.
Wise words, Сњешко. Thanks very much.
Well said. I concur as well. The only reason I first weighed in on this is because the discussion in substance and tone was detracting from other topics more worthy of our time.
With that in mind, further research on my end shows that the dedications of the Quito Ecuador, Belem Brazil, Praia Cabo Verde, and San Juan Puerto Rico Temples could all be announced in the next 6-8 weeks. With the New Zealand and Japan borders anticipated to reopen in spring, I'd anticipate reopening arrangements for those temples could be announced after General Conference. I'd also anticipate that in April or May, the Church will provide details on the Logan Utah renovation.
I was also told the groundbreaking for the Belo Horizonte Brazil Temple was anticipated in April or May, and that spring would be the likely time for the groundbreakings of the remaining 6 US temples which have had renderings released, with the Ephraim Utah Temple likely to have a rendering released and a groundbreaking scheduled before the end of June.
I am an advocate for transforming mistakes into opportunities of growth. I have no intention to get up on my proverbial soapbox (I very rarely comment). A lot of the core issues relating to the talk are key topics addressed on this blog and are DIRECTLY related to the GROWTH of the Church. How is a talk by a General Authority about reasons to STAY in the Church (i.e. MEMBERSHIP RETENTION ) not relevant to this blog? I understand that what is bandied about are excerpts of the most problematic statement so the context of the talk is lost; thus, some consider this topic to be irrelevant. However, the premise of the talk was to INSPIRE YOUTH TO STAY IN THE CHURCH --- which is very relevant and crucial to this blog. There is a connection, but I understand completely why many have failed to see that amidst the hubub of it all. I think attitudes that refuse to take the opportunity to listen and improve contribute to why many young people are leaving the Church. The speaker did listen and did improve -- this isn't about him. It's bout the lesson we as a Church can learn from it.
Rhetorical questions (ones that were examples of types of questions people, especially Young Adults and Youth, might leave the Church over) were asked and then were answered by the speaker. Unfortunately, the speaker's responses to questions that mirror many sincere/genuine questions were answered with (whether intentional or not) flippant rhetoric that were condescending and dismissive of earnest questions. I don't want/need to rehash what's been stated elsewhere regarding statements concerning race/women/other religions, but by the talk's conclusion there was a general sense of divisiveness instead of commonground. In a talk meant to INSPIRE to STAY, an aggressive rhetoric rooted in fear instead of love was oddly chosen. (I suspect as a well known Youth Speaker, high energy talks to maintain the youth's attention can get tricky and attempts at entertainment may not always be palatable?).
Anyway, I just want to say, that a lesson (among many) we can learn as a Church, which might be helpful in maintaining our membership of the Youth/Young Adults, is to be more understanding/compassionate of these questions/concerns/doubts, not to be so belittling of those who do have these questions/concerns/doubts, and not be so quick to brush these questions/concerns aside. We need to take the time to properly address these questions/concerns/doubts. As a part of that, we need to be transparent about our past regarding various topics. Mistakes have been made through the course of the Church's History (and that's okay), but I think people (prospective members and young members alike - frankly, many members) just want acknowledgement of that instead of fierce loyalty bound up in a flawed human. In sum, I think for purposes of membership retention (and likewise membership growth), more respect concerning difficult questions should be granted and there needs to better acknowledgement that there have been policies enacted based on misguided traditions. As an institution, the Church is progressing, but it's apparent it will take time for this to trickle down.
I have not and will not engage in "childish bickering" or "utter foolishness" and hope that just because others have, does not mean I will be pigeonholed with them because it's tied to the same topic. As a note of clarification: I am not "entitled" and I have not "hijacked" the comments as I fully support, expect, and am interested in other topics to be presented -- I just don't believe in suppression simply because someone is "over-it" and assumes discussions of how to do better and maintain Church Membership and Church Growth are "attacks." In fact, I applaud the example of the speaker and I am humbled by his humility -- for lack of better words. **I purposely did not mention his name in this post to tarnish his name.
I agree 100%! It's not "evidence" but as Richard Bushman has said, the dominant narrative of church history deliberately glosses over some of the uncomfortable truths of our past. I'm not trying to lead anyone away from the church at all, it was just helpful for me to read those quotes to better understand the milieu in which the race ban on priesthood and temple ordinances was denied to African descendents. I couldn't find primary sources that have compiled those quotes other than "anti" material. As a church, I don't think we should be scared of our history and should confront the inaccuracies and moral quandaries of our past head-on. I will also check out the link you cited, Mon Chou!
I was hoping that a site location/city would be announced for the temple in Russia this year, but with tensions in Ukraine, that seems far from likely.
Never too early for me. Let's hear them!
Does anyone know something about the Nicaragua, Managua Temple?
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, "everyone" is correct!
The Managua Temple has a location on Google Maps. However, I do not know if this location is accurate or not
James - Reading the CES letter was one of the most painful things I ever did as a member of the church but I'm glad that I read it. We shouldn't be afraid to examine literature that confronts the church, in fact by understanding the arguments from apostates helps us better bring them back into the fold. Poor thinking can only be corrected with better thinking!
@Anonymous, gotcha. Makes sense. I kind of speculated that's why you included it (no worries), but wasn't sure if you were an investigator or not (didn't want to make assumptions) so I said something. But you're totally right -- it is hard to find everything compiled into one place unless you invest in a pricey tome, that's why I was kind of thrilled when I came across this article earlier because it was so transparent regarding the messy past and didn't shy away from tough truths regarding the Priesthood topic (and it included most of the same quotes as the other website), but is a a trusted source AND in that same vein that it is thorough on difficult nitty-gritty details it is also detailed in the worldwide miracles and prophetic inspiration involved in removing the ban. It was such an uplifting article about how change is a beautiful thing. I've never really been taught about the miracles or insights surrounding President Kimball's Revelation either. Once I read this, I just had to circulate it among my entire family when I found it. Haha. I think it was the most well written article I've ever read regarding the Priesthood restriction. In case it gets lost in the shuffle: it's here (in case others are interested):
https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/spencer-w-kimball-and-the-revelation-on-priesthood/
Also, another source, is this wonderful "Black History in the Church" Devotional given last year in California by Mauli Bonner Jr. (Director of "Green Flake" - about black Pioneers that rode across with Brigham Young) and member of the 70, Elder Miskin: https://youtu.be/6cfRvJ-q0ag
It covered a lot of the same things in the article, but of course, this has a lot of visuals for those of us who are visual learners. It was moving to hear it from an African-American perspective.
*I'm not sure why people are saying nobody has been enlightened, supported, or uplifted by these comments. �� I think if people took the time to look at what I provided here they would be incredibly uplifted and maybe find it educational too. Sometimes "a man will do more for his stubbornness than for his religion."
Quick Question, are young adults and youth leaving the Church at record pace? True or False? I thought this comment section was specifically a place where we strive to understand membership oscillation so that we can better teach and reach out to God's children. Now please, on behalf of everybody, let's not impede discourse seeking to improve pedagogical, ministering, and proselytizing methods so that we may continue to do so. The topic of not only "Com[ing] Unto Christ," but Staying with Christ is definitely a "worthy" topic for this comment section. I must say, I found myself betwixt the sensation of being flummoxed and downright disheartened to read expressions suggesting the contrary. Furthermore, I fail to understand how some comments pertaining to this topic prevents others from broaching new topics as the very nature of a comment section is disconnected/disjointed thoughts. Let's not cast derision to respectful dialogue.
Anyone has a choice to read anything they feel good about, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's better to understand the opposition. Back when I first found out the CES letter was a thing, I had considered reading it and made whether I should do so a matter of earnest prayer. The answer I got was a distinct and forceful "no". I fundamentally disagree that the best defense is a good offense. Other people can view such material as they feel inclined to. For whatever reason, the Lord made it clear to me that it would be better for me personally to not even attempt to do so.
I don't know why, but I have gotten clear and distinct impressions like that in the past, and subsequent to that, so I have no reason to doubt it was the right decision for me personally. IMHO, if anything doesn't pass the litmus test described in D&C 9:7-9, it's probably something we should avoid. In those occasions when the Lord needed me to speak or respond to any gospel-related question, it was my preparation to do so, not "studying the opposition's playbook" that was most beneficial for me.
If others feel good about their choice to read it, then obviously that was the right choice for them. We all have to make the choices that are right for each of us to be where the Lord needs us when He has something He needs us to do. That path looks different to everyone, and as long as we all feel confident in those chosen paths, and that they are approved by the Lord, we cannot hope for any more or less than that.
Another recent comment here asked about the Nicaragua and Russia Temples. I have some information on both. Following his 2012 apostolic promise that a temple would be announced in Nicaragua, a site for such an edifice was procured around 3-4 years later. And although then-Elder Nelson could not have known this, the Lord surely knew at the time he gave that apostolic promise that he himself would be the prophet that would fulfill that promise.
Subsequently, with the announcements of the San Pedro Sula Honduras and Coban Guatemala Temple, a Church member contact of mine living in the Central America Area reportedly hahd seen the exterior renderings for all three temples, but didn't know how soon each would be released. I was given tips from this same individual that the renderings for Coban and San Pedro Sula would be released and the groundbreakings set just before those respective announcements on both temples were made.
While no site announcement or rendering has been released for Managua, hopefully that will occur soon, I hope. We do know that the site has been acquired, so it may just be a matter of time. That said, let's move on to the Russia temple. Not long after that one was announced, I received confirmation that only 3 "major cities" were under active consideration: Moscow, Saratov, and St. Petersburg. Subsequently, my research on the matter indicated that the preferred location would be Moscow, which serves as the host city for the headquarters of the Europe East Area. It appeared likely that an ancillary facility could house offices for the area presidency members, mission presidency members, temple presidency members, and temple guests, among other features.
I subsequently received feedback from someone privy to information from Church headquarters regarding that temple that Moscow was the only location being actively discussed and considered by the Church. I wouldn't be surprised if the Russia-Ukraine issue delays the release of information on that temple. But around a year ago, I also received a tip to "keep [the Russia temple] on the periphery of [my] radar", since official information on that could possibly come down the pike sooner rather than later.
Hope these additional insights are helpful to all who read them.
Great! I completely agree with these words
Thanks James,
The Cagayan de Oro Philippines Temple also has a location on Google Maps:
FJCV+RH7, Cagayan de Oro, Misamis Oriental, Philippines
Would you happen to have any more information on this temple?
The Lagos Nigeria Temple also has a location on Google Maps:
Church Bus Stop, Ojo, Lagos, Nigeria.
I also see the Rexburg North Idaho Temple location on Google Maps as well, and as a member of the Rexburg Idaho Stake, I can confirm that is the correct location for the future temple.
Thank you, Mon Chou, you expressed it beautifully. I have nothing personal against the speaker either. But getting stuff like this over the pulpit directly hinders church growth and retention. It made me want to leave, and some people did leave. One comment on YouTube reads, "Bro. Wilcox, congratulations, you single handedly broke my shelf. I was holding on for dear life and now...no way is this family of 5 staying."
Pills & Pillows, one study found that 6 in 10 LDS youth still identified as LDS a decade later, but of course not all of them were active. A leaked 2008 meeting of the Apostles discussed a 30% YSA activity rate in the US and a 20% YSA activity rate elsewhere. https://religionnews.com/2020/06/29/dear-mormon-parents-its-not-just-your-children-that-are-leaving-the-church/ Anecdotally, it appears that the problem has gotten worse because every young person in the Church has friends and/or family members who have left. If you ask about that in any YSA gathering, every hand goes up. A lot of it has to do with social issues. It's no secret that younger generations are far more supportive of LGBTQ+ rights and less patient with an organization that tells women they can't do certain things because of their sex. It makes me very sad, because we've lost some of the best people that way. If one person loses their faith because the pain of LGBTQ+ members breaks their heart, and another person is able to maintain their faith because they don't care about LGBTQ+ members, the Church is worse off for it. (Not that these are the only two categories of people, of course, but I see *a lot* of active members bending over backwards to avoid having empathy for LGBTQ+ people, trying to explain why a lifetime of loneliness and celibacy that they would never choose is no big deal for other people to have to choose, trying to avoid the cognitive dissonance of how awful that actually is.) The huge increase in talks, firesides, articles, and books about faith crisis, doubt, asking questions, controversial history, and "please don't leave the Church" within the last decade shows an increase in concern from leadership too. But then some of it misses the point and makes people's doubts and concerns worse by doubling down on prophet worship and us-vs.-everyone-else-in-the-world rhetoric.
Сњешко, I'm sorry that someone is holding a gun to your head and making you read comments you don't want to read. That must be really rough.
Growth and the lack of growth in the Kingdom of God occur physically, spiritually, emotionally, sociologically, psychologically, temporally, existentially, and on and on.
Priesthood accounts of the Church of Jesus Christ touch on many of those.
I understand your gripes, but at the same time, these issues affect the present and future growth of the faith.
Gratefully the Church is growing well in many African nations, in Afro parts of Brazil and the Caribbean. There are other parts of the Antilles that are quite stagnant. Past issues do not affect the growth that much, I feel, but all members have a part in shaping the narrative of faith, love, acceptance.
For Church growth.
Who is on the Lord’s side?
I hope I am.
I know someone who served on the Isle of Mann.
How is it to make it to the temple from there?
@Mon Chou, thanks for the link to that BYU studies article. I was particularly impressed and pleased it included the circa 1949 First Presidency statement that is often ignored. Including it in the context of a very detailed article from a believer's perspective rather than leaving coverage of it solely to anti-Mormon sources is much more faith-promoting in my view than taking an "out of sight, out of mind" approach.
@Christopher Nicholson, that 60% is consistent with what I have read. I remember seeing (perhaps even on this blog) some stats to the effect that in the 1980s the retention rate for young adults raised in the church was about 80%, but by the 2010s had fallen to about 66%. Regarding the various topics you mentioned, while you didn't make any claims about what "should be done" I have seen others make similar observations and follow them up with calls for changing church teachings around homosexual conduct or the ordination of women. History indicates that those who think such changes will improve church growth and retention are probably mistaken -- the denominations that have experienced the most significant collapse in membership in the late 20th and early 21st century, both within the US and globally, are those that did exactly that. Now, we don't (or at least, I don't think we should) base doctrine or commandments on what will increase or lower growth, so in some sense whether or not it would make a difference to church growth is irrelevant to what "should be done" doctrinally, though certainly it may impact how we minister to and interact with people both in and out of the church, but since the conversation is about the impact such things have on retention and growth I do think it is worth noting that the relationship between a church's teachings on these issues and proselyting/retention is not necessarily the "this harms the growth of the church" story some seem to think it is.
I will be frank as you all seem to take the truth rather harshly. As a gen-z ysa myself, nothing any of you have said would ever aid keeping one of my peers in the church. If this is really the best approach you can come up with, it is no wonder we are leaving in droves. But continue on, I'm sure it is making you all feel productive and better about yourselves.
Aight I'm done with this, say what ever you want, but just know that if you are really concerned about helping myself and my peers, focusing on wilcox's words aren't going to get you any where
Here is what Classic Maps returns as search for Russia Temple.
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=56.140928,35.710167&z=12&m=google.hybrid&layers=temple,temple.construction,temple.renovated,stakecenter,mission,area&expand=0&q=Russia%20Temple&find={a:%22Poselok%20Russa%22,c:%22Volokolamsk%22,s:%22Central%20Federal%20District%22,n:%22Russia%22,ll:%2256.15997,35.70709%22}
Unknown, the Lagos Nigeria Temple had a site procured not long after its' announcement, so it doesn't shock me that it's on LDS Maps. I have no information on Cagayan de Oro, other than the fact that it has remained in the queue while Davao has had a site confirmed, rendering released, and groundbreaking occur. The Rexburg North Idaho Temple location was indirectly confirmed by the family who owned the property, but there's been nothing official on that yet. I am hopeful that details on all four US Temples announced in October could be announced before the April 2022 General Conference.
Looks like I need to again update my temple construction progress report in view of the newest information shared here.
I also fully share your opinion. I haven't been a YSA in a very long time, but anyone with even the slightest bit of progressive thinking needs to ask these questions every now and then and stand up against backward talk, wherever it comes from.
This is Matt - the owner of this blog.
I do appreciate many of the comments in regard to church growth. I do think some of this dialogue may be better suited for Reddit since it is delving more into other issues that are not directly related to Church growth. However, I think it is important to permit this dialogue since it has had a heavy emphasis on member activity rates and why people become inactive or leave the Church.
In terms of the question whether member activity rates are decreasing in the Church in the United States, and particularly among YSAs, I do not think that there has been a significant change in the past 20 years. They have consistently been very low outside of Utah and moderate to high at universities that attract large numbers of Latter-day Saints. For example, the Boulder Colorado Stake had about a 10% member activity rate for YSAs in the mid to late 2000s (and the student ward covered multiple stakes at the time). I was told that this is actually pretty typical for areas where there is not a college or university that attracts active members. In recent years, I think we are seeing more of a polarization with active members going to Church schools or schools with large numbers of active members, and fewer and fewer going to other schools, particularly those students who are not pursuing advanced degrees.
What I find most interesting about why people leave the Church is that the reason they say for why they leave often changes. Typically, it seems a major life event or crisis starts the path away from the Church (divorce, death, financial hardship, mental health crisis), and then the disaffiliated member later re-conceptualizes their reason for leaving to confirm with something very different (and often doctrinally related or blaming the institution). There was an excellent presentation about this phenomenon given at a SSSR conference a few years ago in which the presenter had did a longitudinal study of people who were in a ward in Utah and followed them years, or decades, later. It was a fascinating lecture that I will never forget. It was actually in October 2019, and called "Mundane Apostasy: Examining Catalysts for Mormon Disaffiliation in Utah" by Rick Phillips, University of North Florida.
The biggest crisis/crises in the Church in the United States would be, without a doubt, the problems with YSAs getting married and staying married and the declining birth rate in the Church. These are serious problems that have continued to worsen. Without correction, the Church will not be able to replace its active membership with the rising generation. I am sure there are varied reasons why this is a problem. Another major issue I have seen as well is worsening mental health problems among many younger members of the Church (this is a national trend not unique to Latter-day Saints). In the past, the Church has been much more insulated in the Intermountain West away from many societal trends, but this "Utah Bubble" has largely gone away in the past 10-20 years in the major population centers, and so we often see many of the national trends also affecting the Church membership (although sometimes it seems more like it has been postponed 10-20 years). For those of you unfamiliar with Spiral Dynamics, this is a great podcast that I think can explain some of the cultural shifts in the Church: https://podcastaddict.com/episode/84787384.
Finally, we have seen a trend that has accelerated in the past 2-4 years of active members moving to Utah away from many other states in the United States (which has probably affected the seemingly endless parade of temple announcements in Utah). Here in Colorado Springs, I would say probably as many as half of members who move out the city move to Utah, and we get very few move-ins from Utah nowadays. When I was growing up in the 90s, most of the new move-ins in the Church seemed to come from Utah and California.
I here what you are saying Сњешко. All of my children who are gen-z have left primarily because of larger cultural issues, but they also expressed to me that they felt lied to in church after learning about the inaccuracies surrounding the early church and Book of Mormon.
I think the messaging of church leadership is more about preserving the peace for older generations than deal directly with the information readily available to younger generations on the internet. I don't really understand it, but I believe my role for my children is to provide a nuanced approach. I feel sad for leaders who either refuse to ask why people are leaving in record numbers or refuse to hear their answers. Revamping the official church messaging for the youth to address some of the hard truths about the Church's past in a faith-promoting context could do wonders.
Anonymous, not sure if you'd remember this, but in 2008, then-Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf was called as Second Counselor in the First Presidency. Although his first General Conference talk in that assignment was given during the Priesthood Session, the following day, he gave his first address to the Church at large. That address was entitled "Faith of Our Father":
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2008/04/faith-of-our-father?lang=eng
His address focused on providing encouragement to those who had, according to their family members, abandoned the "faith of [their] fathers" in favor of membership of the Church. He went on to explain why embracing the Church and choosing to stay therein would truly help these newest Church members remain true to the "faith of [their] Father."
Of all of the current apostles, Elder Uchtdorf has been the one to most often address those kinds of subjects in his talk, doing so further in October 2006 (The Power of a Personal Testimony), October 2008 (Happiness, Your Heritage), April 2009 (The Way of the Disciple and The Love of God, respectively), October 2011 (You Matter to Him), April 2013 (The Hope of God's Light), October 2013 (Come, Join with Us), April 2014 (Are You Sleeping Through the Restoration?), October 2014 (Living the Gospel Joyful and Receiving a Testimony of Light and Truth), October 2015 (It Works Wonderfully!), October 2016 (O How Great the Plan of Our God!), October 2018 (Believe, Love, Do), April 2019 (Missionary Work: Sharing What is In Your Heart), April 2020 (Come and Belong), and October 2021 (Daily Restoration).
So from just one apostle, I found 17 addresses from the last 15 years. I focused on Elder Uchtdorf's remarks because he has addressed the topic most often. But if we looked at the other 14 apostles, we'd likely find a far higher number of those kinds of talks. The problem therefore is not that Church leaders aren't addressing it, but that those who most need to hear these remarks are the ones who seem unaware they have been given, or are just not paying sufficient attentmon to what is actually said, and then bemoaning the fact that their concerns, and in fact, all major issues related to the Church, are not being sufficiently addressed. The Brethren should not be held responsible or culpable for the fact that those who most need to hear their remarks are not attentive to them. The addresses I shared above can be found relatively easily from the Gospel Library page.
I wouldn't say that I haven't been guility of inattentiveness to what is actually said in General Conference, but I have been able to find information like this in a relatively short amount of time, because I was in the practice of looking for it. While we as Church members may be guilty of not doing enough to retain new Church members, if a single apostle has given 17 talks on the subject in the last 15 years, that says more about the individual complaining that it's not being addressed than it ever does about the Brethren, who have frequently spoken on this subject.
Matt, I an truly sorry. It wasn't my intention to open that can of worms by posting a link to Bro. Wilcox's 2nd apology letter. I had hoped it would serve as a healing message and not exactly the opposite.
@Christopher Duerig, I certainly found it to be a healing a message. I dont think you opened a can of worms at all. you simply reported the news. can't shoot the messenger, right? it appears only one or two are disgruntled albeit vocal. thanks for sharing. thanks for your other links too as you are my go-to-guy for recent current events in the church.
@Mon Chou, thank you for that BYU article!!!!! I see why you were thrilled to find it. I had never heard those stories about Kimball before. i enjoyed learning. thanks for turning lemons into lemonade too. it's fun to know there's another woman reader here as i am sometimes shy about commenting by mere virtue of the "butterfly" username and the correlation of femininity sometimes to lightheartedness. honestly, as a young member in the church it's also nice "to be seen" by older generations and know that people are listening to our concerns.
@Matt, thank you very much for permitting such dialogue. i also am a gen-z(er) and do find this engagement productive. thanks for answering Pills&Pillows question. it is not always clear whether my generation is fleeing the church or it appears that way because of public announcements due to social media. i am not in the intermountain west or bubble as it were so where i live there are hardly any of us to begin with. from an anecdotal perspective, most my church friends i grew up with have left, but ive been told by leadership this was an illusion due to social media. which could be true. i don't have the data. can you tell me more about the young members live outside the mormon corridor? and is the past 20 years of fallout among the younger generations def larger than the fallout than that of the 60-70's?
@James, thanks for researching all of those GC talks given by Duchtorf. wonderful talks. as others said the Church leadership is making remarkable strides to be transparent but i don't think people are necessarily inattentive when they are unaware of problematic history. a large part might come down to local leadership. GC is not the proper venue to learn a litany of historical hard truths. not all of us have grown up in the church with seminary. and as anonymous pointed out, when you try to google the info, the most readily info available for free is compiled by anti-mormons. i for one would like to see more of those byu articles available on the official websites. and more devotionals like the one done by bonner.
i appreciate this whole thing.
@Сњешко, The scope of the conversation (at least my part of it) isn't about focusing on a particular speaker's words or about any one speaker for that matter - it had been my hope to transition into a more positive and more "on-topic" (as you rightly pointed out) discussion about what the collective "we" as a Church can learn. I apologize for my lack of eloquence in writing if that wasn't executed well and you were left with the impression I was dwelling in the past and laser focused on encircling myself in negativity -- you are quite right that doesn't get people anywhere, which is why that wasn't the point of my comment. I like to be a part of the solution; not the problem. Sorry if that wasn't clear. But, I just want to let you know, I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way. In fact, I, myself, was tired of the negative news cycle elsewhere that that is what led me to find positive (and highly factual/detailed) sources, the previously posted BYU article and a truly inspired devotional: https://youtu.be/6cfRvJ-q0ag I don't possess the audacity to think my words (and I never thought my words would) aid in keeping your peers in the Church, but I think those sources might. Give them a chance if you want. I know, for me at least, it was a productive endeavor to read/watch them. It didn't make me feel better about myself, but it made me feel more confident about my ability to answer tough questions from a church sanctioned source.
Also, I am highly interested in hearing your ideas about what you think will aid your peers? What are some approaches you can come up with?
Please don't feel compelled to respond if you're uncomfortable or simply don't want to (no response is necessary and no offense will be taken), but the door is open should you care to share your thoughts. I do believe many of us would be interested since you are among the demographic of which this concerns and have some strong opinions. We understand, however, if you prefer not to.
Anyway, just wanted to say, I come in "peace." �� I'm not sure that my emojis are working, but that's supposed to be a smile.
I am not sure how much I have read on Reddit. I like learning about Church growth, the One belonging to Jesus Christ.
How is the growth in Portuguese countries of Africa?
What is the Church presence of Nepal?
Which state in the U.S. will next have 100 k members? Or a temple? Or a new stake?
Where are the highest baptizing missions?
All of it fascinating.
Some of it is disappointing.
Whoops! I messed up my print…
I think one of the problems we face when trying to bring people back, or to keep them here is our focus on church attendance. We focus so much on this outcome variable that we don’t focus on what is most important and what will boost attendance. It is the Spirit that matters most. If we focus on helping people feel the spirit and to remember times when they’ve felt it that’s when they come back.
It’s kind of weird, but the only time I ever think about leaving the church is when I’m listening to a talk about staying in the church.
Help people (including ourselves) to feel the Spirit, and they will feel loved, they will feel wanted. Sometimes they might even feel this way towards the other members. But they will feel loved and wanted by God and by Christ and that is more powerful than any logical machination we can come up with.
@Matt, thanks for the information. I absolutely agree that low marriage rates and low fertility rates are the two big crises, which mirrors what is happening around the globe. And low marriage rates are a double whammy since married young adults, especially men, are more likely to stay active than single young adults (though that could partly be selection effects).
@Eduardo, an elder who served in the same mission as me (though we were never companions) is from Nepal. There is a branch in Kathmandu, and they do pretty well at member missionary work and have quite a few returned missionaries but unfortunately Nepal is pretty restrictive in terms of religious freedom, especially with regards to proselyting, so there are no full-time missionaries there. The church also has had a pretty sustained LDS Charities presence there, although covid may have temporarily derailed that.
As announced in Matt's previous blog feed, the new "Dakar Senegal District - 2196352" has appeared today in the Classic Maps site.
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=14.913956,-17.345548&z=10&m=google.hybrid&layers=stakecenter&q=Dakar%20Senegal%20District
Just a general inquiry. Has anyone else noticed that this week was the 1st in as long as I can remember that the Church leadership has not posted, neither in the Newsroom site, nor the Church News site, the weekly Temples Stages update? I know a great many of the 170 operating temples are currently in Stage 3 of operation. And none that are in Stage 4 as far as I can guess. It is hard to believe there are no changes or updates in status this week, that is usually reported on both sites on Tuesday mornings in recent weeks. Previously on Mondays.
Christopher Duerig, both the Newsroom and the Church News put out updates when there are updates to put out. I'd suggest you look at the latest Church News update:
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2022-02-08/lds-temples-open-worldwide-phased-reopening-183918
One paragraph thereof specifically and categorically states that, since so many temples are in phase 3, and since it could be a while until there are new updates to provide, those updates will ONLY be published as needed going forward. So if there's nothing to report, there will be no updates.
The trouble with only reading one source for the relevant information is that both the Church News and the Newsroom present the same updates, but there are details in the Church News that are not in the Newsroom release, and the opposite is true as well. So you can look for updates to be released in both place when there are updates to report. Hope that answers your question.
I just wanted to pass along an update from my previously-offered thoughts about the timing that might come into play for upcoming temple dedications or rededications. There is currently a Level 4 (Do Not Travel) warning in effect for Brazil, Ecuador, and Cabo Verde:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/brazil-travel-advisory.html
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/ecuador-travel-advisory.html
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/cabo-verde-travel-advisory.html
Additionally, there is a Level 3 (Reconsider Travel) advisory for New Zealand currently, which is why the Church still has not announced a rededication for the Hamilton New Zealand Temple:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/new-zealand-travel-advisory.html
And Japan is also at a level 4 (Do Not Travel) advisory for the time being:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/japan-travel-advisory.html
I am not sure what all of this means, but it could mean the Church might postpone the opening of the Rio de Janeiro Brazil Temple, and may hold off on setting opening arrangements for the Quito, Yigo, Praia, and Belem temples until the travel advisory phase is green again. The same with temple rededications in Hamilton New Zealand and Tokyo Japan.
That being said, it seems likely the Church might be able to go ahead with the Columbus Ohio Temple when that is ready, and that it will not be a problem to have the Helena Montana, Saratoga Springs Utah, and other US Temples dedicated as they are completed. I will try to keep an eye out for any changes on the travel advisories and keep you all in the loop on that. My thanks once again to you all.
Matt mentioned that there has been an acceleration in members moving to Utah from other states in the past few years. Is there anything similar (even if smaller in scale) in parts of the world outside of the United States? Are there places members flock to in other countries, perhaps to live near the temple or to be in a place where their children can have some other member friends at school or for other reasons?
I have noticed that many retirees move back to Utah after a full career away from it. I have seen this from Washington, California, Virginia, and elsewhere. Sometimes one of them is from Utah originally, or sometimes both. The kids were raised outside, often.
Not in Brazil, specifically because of the absence of a church university in the country
Considering that we have an apostle native to Brazil, I imagine the schedule could be lied to here if he is assigned to the dedications in his home country.
Dakar Senegal District (2196352)
13 Feb 2022
Dakar Branch (2067811)
Parcelles Branch (2116790)
Saint-Louis Branch (2196360
Daniel, Elder Soares did dedicate the Fortaleza Brazil Temple in 2019, but Elder Gary E. Stevenson has been assigned to preside at the Rio de Janeiro dedication, since he is the only member of the Quorum of the Twelve who has not yet personally presided over a temple dedication. But the information I found yesterday (which noted Brazil was in a phase 4: Do Not Travel status) also noted that even native Brazilians were being discouraged from trying to enter Brazil for the present time. Could things change between now and the dedication, which is planned for May? Of course. But based on the fact that phase 4 is the highest restrictionary phase for international travel, unless Brazil is downgraded to phase 2 or 1 by 2-3 weeks from the scheduled beginning of the open house for Rio de Janeiro (which is set to begin on March 26), it may be wiser all around for the Church to delay that. But in the latest COVID-19 update from the First Presidency today, area presidencies are being encouraged to consult with government leaders and medical experts to determine the best course of action (and any associated COVID-19 restrictions or guidelines) for each of the Church's 22 areas. So things are very much in flux, and I'll be interested to see what the determination is for the Brazil Area.
For those curious, the latest update from the First Presidency on COVID-19, which instruct area presidencies to consult with qualified professionals, then make the decisions that would be in the best interests of the Saints in each area, is available through both the Newsroom and the Church News:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-updates-covid-19-guidelines
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2022-02-18/first-presidency-covid-mask-policies-area-stake-presidencies-church-temples-243566
My thanks once again to you all.
I do believe we are approaching Phase 4 and may get there for the first locations perhaps as early as this General Conference (it's very possible that it gets announced there over the pulpit in my opinion). There are a few reasons I can think of:
- The Church is increasingly lagging behind state and national governments in returning to normalcy, including governments which have a history of caution and giving a lot of credence to health professionals. I've said earlier that it makes relatively little sense to require reservations to attend the temple when other parts of daily life where the risk of contageon is probably higher (like restaurants) operate without any safeguards from infection. Such has been the case for many months in some places and should be the case almost everywhere in the western world in the next couple of months.
- Many temples around the world are already serving a pre-Covid number of patrons right now, and moving them from Phase 3 to 4 would not make temples less safe from that standpoint, either.
- I wonder how many appointments have recently been cancelled, given the Omicron surge and exposure rules. Personally I've cancelled four of my last five appointments to travel to Indianapolis or St. Louis on relatively short notice, although two of those have been due to snow and ice storms and my worry about resulting freeway closures/being unable to make it home after the session. One was because my wife was feeling sick (not Covid as turns out) and another was due to me being exposed at work (although I kept going to work and live normally per Health Department and CDC guidance). Each time something like this happens, and I'm sure it's very common, it deprives somebody else of attending the temple - unless they live close enough to just spontaneously take the appointment on short notice. For the most part, it's pretty unnecessary, and I can definitely see the benefit of giving people the opportunity to attend spontaneously again as soon as possible.
Dear James, you are right. I had forgotten that the assignment had already been given to Elder Stevenson. However, remember that the government of Brazil and Rio are denialists and very careless with regard to the pandemic, which motivates the restriction of the American government. Let's wait for the next events, hoping that everything goes as expected, since I'm planning to travel 8 hours myself to visit the temple.
Chris Brown: it is natural to want to do opposite of what we know is right, when we hear it over and over. Eat right, sleep right, save money, don’t speed, don’t, don’t, don’t, do, do, do.
Lehi and Nephi talked of the rod of Iron.
If we hear that sermon too much I guess the natural tendency would be to let go and wander.
We are about 9 weeks from conference.
Is there a temple for Mongolia yet? That place has slowed down lately…
@Unknown
In Europe the tempels definitly draw member to them over time. Examble of that are Chorley (Preston England Temple), Friedrichtsdorf (Frankfurt Germany Temple), Zollikofen (Bern Switzerland Temple). I am shure there are others. Estern Europe is specially loosing active members to the US (UTAH). A friend of mine servied in Ukraine during the Krim crisis (2014). He serve in Odessa. He saied that around 12 strong member families left Odessa for the US, Canada, Western Europe (in that order) during that time and that this was the reason why they had to close 2 branches.
My wife is from Albania and acording to her more active members left Albania for the US than there currently are in Albania.
@Unknown
Thanks for letting me know about the new arts building plans.
"Martin Luther King III, 2 apostles, Pulitzer winner will speak at BYU this year"
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/9/9/22663205/churchbeat-newsletter-martin-luther-king-iii-apostles-pulitzer-winner-speak-byu-marilynne-robinson
"Two notable civil and human rights leaders will deliver forum addresses as part of the year’s forum theme: “Creating a Beloved Community.”
The two Black leaders will speak at the Latter-day Saint school just months after the church pledged $9 million toward scholarships for Black students and humanitarian aid for Black inner-city communities."
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/6/14/22530395/latter-day-saints-give-to-uncf-naacp-provide-scholarships-to-black-students-lds-mormon
If members move to be close to a temple, will they attend it more?
Not sure if it happens at all temples but a temple president once said that the ones who lived close to the one he served at were the least likely to attend.
An area seventy recently said in eastern Washington state that people were gathering to be near Spokane, and that assumedly ore-pandemic that temple was regularly packed to the gills. I think that is why Moses Lake initially, and he thought a second temple in the Spokane metro was likely at some point.
My stake sponsored an adult religion class where we reviewed the essays. A general authority told Church Educational teachers and administrators that they should know the essays Luke the back of their hand.
They are easily accessible is the gospel library app, which is held by far more people than would ever purchase any published volume.
If there is a low level of coverage of them it is only because The Church has published so much material in the last decade.
Also, the First Presidency no longer dies monthly messages.
This is the first I have heard of rebuilding the HFAC but with the new music building being built I am not surprised.
There is no "embedded racism in the Book of Mormon". People have written we researched articles that show that the "skin of blackness" spoken of in Alma is the very skin that in the verse before we were told the Lamanites wore on themselves.
You are totally out of line for your hateful attacks on so many good people
I am tired of people like Brett Sterling being allowed to engage in baseless character assassination of past church members. The first president of my stake participated in a fair housing act support March in 1964.
People like Brett use baseless wolf crying words to try and judge people of the past by present standards.
It is hateful, hurtful, demeaning and devisive rhetoric which clearly shows a total disconnect from theived e periences of African-Americans in the present.
I live in an inner city branch with an African-American wife. The reasons that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints struggles to grow in inner cities have absolutely nothing to do with past Church policies.
They have everything to do with current societal actions, levels of cross cultural interaction, and related issues.
The solution to our issues is never going to be in added statements about the past. It may be in bold moves towards the future. Things such as the vision of growth Elder Clark Gilbert mentioned in his talk.
It may also be found in the BYU-Pathway program.
None of the gospel topics essays were in any way signed. So that gripe is a total canard.
Moses Lake is also supposed to relieve Columbia River. My mother-in-law is (barely) in Yakima stake and there are rumblings that it will go to Moses Lake, along with Selah stake and the stakes above I-90 that currently go to Columbia River. (I think she will still go to Columbia River, which is also overcrowded, since it's much closer for her.)
Referring to a previous topic on this thread, here are some lectures by Hugh Nibley that I've found helpful in understanding the use of the terms "black" and "white" in the Book of Mormon, and how they relate to the book's Egyptian and Hebrew cultural heritage. I thought some of you might find them interesting, as well.
https://youtu.be/m2vQtYRpkZ4?t=1792
(video starts @29:52 - he stays on this topic for about 5 minutes)
https://youtu.be/z6kQAB-fmPk
(the first 5 minutes)
https://youtu.be/7GXGQLuKaao?t=2420
(video starts @40:20 - he stays on this topic for about 5 minutes)
JPL, Brett Stirling is a long-time commenter here and on the threads of my blog. His contributions in both places are always well thought-out, and your comment objecting to his "character assassination" could in and of itself be considered a "character assassination" of Brett Stirling. Two wrongs do not make a right. You know that from your recent editing restrictions on Wikipedia. I strongly suggest that, before speaking I'll of anyone anywhere, that you take a deep breath, think carefully, then measure your response very carefully. I respect you both, but your characterization of Brett Stirling is dead wrong and shouldn't have been posted with that substance and tone. With all due respect, you're wrong on this.
JPL, Brett Stirling makes frequent valid contributions here, and you have grossly mischaracterized him. Calling out someone's "character assassination" in the substance and tone you used could be construed as a "character assassination" of the one you're calling out for doing the same thing. This is the same type of reaction that led to your being "topic blocked" on Wikipedia recently. With all due respect, I suggest that the next time you are tempted to be uncivil here or on Wikipedia that you stop, step away for a time, take deep breaths, and then react I'd you fe that is still necessary. Comment on topics, not individuals. It's something I have to do myself from time to time.
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