The Church's meetinghouse locator website indicates that a chapel now operates in the northern Benin city of Parakou. Scores of individuals in Parakou have had significant interest in the Church's unofficial French Facebook. Parakou is the Church's first city in northern Benin to have a member group organized. Parakou is the third most populous city in Benin with approximately one-quarter of a million inhabitants.
Wednesday, August 4, 2021
Church Enters Northern Benin - First Member Group Organized
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This is great news! Thanks for sharing.
Is any African nation showing negative growth? Doubtful.
This is very good news. All across west Africa the Church is mainly concentrated in the south of nations close to the coast. This is most pronounced in Nigeria. In Nigeria the northeast is unlikely to see growth anytime soon but there may be potential in the northwest. There has been impressive growth in Nigeria's middle belt over the last 10 years, but there is still huge potential there.
I have to admit I am hoping for a Temple in Abuja, but the South South in either Rivers or Akwa Ibom state really needs
On a sidenote, the meetinghouse locator the past week or so, is not labeling specialty Wards or branches (foreign language or singles) in its search. So for example, people don't have any idea which is the English vs Spanish Ward in the building. Confusing.
Met someone from Pohnpei. Micronesia seems to continue to expand in branches and growth. Like a dozen languages there, 100k plus people.
Matt - Church News had an infographic recently about the countries with the most membership in the world. Are those numbers given in the article based on new data, or old data? I know you mentioned that the church hadn't updated is country-specific membership statistics yet.
James - These are old data. Super frustrating that the Church has had some recent articles that highlight membership statistics and the growth of the Church, and they all include data from year-end 2019.
An interesting potential temple development in East Idaho. A parcel rumored for a large Church development including a second temple in Rexburg has changed hands from the farmer who owned it. The current land holder, I believe, is a shell company, coincidentally using the same name as a shell company established and promptly dissolved about the time of the acquisition of land for the first Rexburg temple. Teton Management Group. Look into it.
EP: where did you get your information. I'd like to know more.
@EP that's interesting. I would not have thought intuitively that Rexburg would receive a second temple soon. Places like Blackfoot or Rigby still sound slightly closer to a temple than Rexburg II.
The obvious question about Rexburg would be, how close to capacity was that before the pandemic? Current use in phase 3 is limiting us knowing for sure on that. Someone has said that when a given temple reaches 80 percent of its capacity on a regular basis, that is when they start looking into another one nearby.
Saw a stake boundary realignment meeting in April, the broadcast got out generally, Shelley has had some growth and the stake on the north side of town got two more wards that day and ow has 11 so some sort of split possibly involving the other stake may be possible there soon. Probably repeating itself across that region too.
Pocatello and Idaho Falls are two other factors in that area, Pocatello will soon be operational, Burley has a site too.
Rexburg has generally been near capacity due to the college. I believe the idea is to give a second temple to allow better access for the community whereas the students were monopolizing the temple prior to the virus. Pocatello will ease IF; Burley will ease Twin Falls. Rexburg division probably won’t affect IF at all. Rexburg currently has about 30 stakes attending the temple there, and most of those stakes are likely at the point of dividing in the next year or two. One community stake I know of has 14 wards in it currently.
As for my sources, I can’t reveal that at the moment. I’m not even someone who should know what I do about it.
Multiple stake conferences set for Sunday, 15 Aug in Southwest Netro Denver
The "Mozambique Beira Mission - 2141949" has finally been updated on the Classic Maps site earlier today.
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=-16.784018,37.199582&z=6&m=google.hybrid&layers=stakecenter,mission,area&q=Mozambique%20Beira%20Mission&find=mission:2141949
It includes the Beira Mozambique Stake - 423076, Beira Mozambique Manga Stake - 2045281, Nampula Mozambique Stake - 2109018, and Chimoio Mozambique District - 2152568.
That part of the Denver area, particularly around C-470, has been growing, so it looks like instead of having one large conference, they have everyone meet in their stake and may be broadcasting it to all to create one new stake from several.
The story of the Denver Temple also mentions that the state built that particular freeway to the exit nearest the temple in the mid-80s, it was not supposed to be finished until maybe years later.
No changes
@Brian McConnell
Are you reporting stake conferences in general, or ones that might result in division announcements? If the former, we will be having stake conference in Kalispell, Montana, next Sunday.
I live in Idaho Falls. Graduated from BYU-I and my wife and I decided to stay here. Parents retired in Rigby. I have a sister in Blackfoot. Rexburg desperately needs another temple. Idaho Falls is very busy, so it's nice to have the Pocatello one for Blackfoot and surrounding areas around Pocatello.
I’ll agree with Unknown. There is definitely a need.
Another interesting pattern. Meridian alleviates Boise. Pocatello alleviates IF. Burley alleviates Twin Falls. That leaves Rexburg and another temple to alleviate Rexburg, which if you look at the temple district, could only be done with a temple in the Rexburg/Sugar City area. Rigby belongs to IF Temple District.
Hello again, everyone! Over the last couple of months, as the Church announced the discontinuation of all Saturday Evening Sessions and then the reinstatement of a general session for all members and friends of the Church, I have made relevant corresponding changes to my predictions for the October 2021 General Conference. I was able to post the latest updates to those on my blog last night. An open commenting period for those remains in effect until Thursday September 30 @ 10:00 PM, which will give me 12 hours or so to make any adjustments before posting the final version prior to General Conference. With my thanks to Matt for continuing to allow me to share such updates, you can find (and comment on) those predictions at the web address below:
https://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com/2021/08/updated-predictions-for-october-2021.html?
Also, the Church announced yesterday evening that the groundbreaking for the Phnom Penh Cambodia Temple will occur on Saturday September 18, with the president of the Cambodia Phnom Penh Mission presiding thereat:
https://news-kh.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/groundbreaking-date-announced-for-phnom-penh-cambodia-temple
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2021-08-18/groundbreaking-date-phnom-penh-cambodia-temple-222690
I provided some analysis on that announcement on my blog, which can be found in the following blog post:
https://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com/2021/08/breaking-temple-news-first-presidency.html?
If any of you have any feedback on either of those posts, I'd encourage you to weigh in on the threads of those posts. That's because I'd prefer not to have feedback on my posts clogging up Matt's queue of comments needing moderation, and also because I currently don't need to moderate and approve comments prior to those being published to those threads, and it will also speed up my ability to read and respond to those comments in a timely manner. My thanks once again to Matt for letting me share these updates, and to all of you for any feedback you may offer.
The Cambodia Phenon Penh temple seems to be the first case of a mission president presiding at some groundbreaking.
This is probably due to covid related travel restrictions. It makes me hope more members of the Church head the first presidency and get vaccinated so that we can put covid-19 behind us.
I agree, I'm very tired of members spouting nonsense about vaccines and accusing the First Presidency of apostasy, but that's mostly an American and European problem. In poorer countries, many people desperately want the vaccine but still don't have access to it. (Cambodia has about the same vaccination rate as Utah, which reflects very poorly on Utah.) This pandemic has really laid bare the gross injustice of wealth and class inequities within and between nations. I'm not advocating any political solutions one way or another, but this should be an unacceptable situation for any true Christian.
@John Pack Lambert
Your point about a Mission President presiding at the Phnom Penh groundbreaking reminded me of something I've been thinking about (especially during our Stake Conference today, which we streamed from home):
It seems the pandemic's limiting factor on the travel of the Apostles and General Authorities is bringing a blessing in disguise: local and regional leaders are having to step up and rely on the Lord more directly for their stewardships, and so are individual parents and families.
I will be interested to see how more leadership responsibility is spread around in the future (like how Pres. Nelson has delegated the Temple Dedications & Rededications to the majority of the members of the Twelve; or how more and more Area Authorities keep being called, resulting in more and more additional Quorums of Seventy).
It seems the Lord is building up Zion from above and from beneath, as is stated in the Doctrine and Covenants.
Perhaps there will come a day (perhaps in the Millennium, perhaps before) when we are all called on to become Prophets and Apostles.
I agree members are some of the worse enemies of the church at Large.
I have been trying to get more use of Latter-day Saint and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Wikipedia. I have hit a brink wall dealing with someone who is trying to claim that Mormon is an informal term for member of the LDS Church. Clearly the formal term is members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the informal term is Latter-day Saint.
I know some would say this is an uphill battle that I at times fight with too much zeal. However I am starting to think that 3 years after President Nelson gave his correct name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we should start to see more changes than we have.
The existing division between the highest leaders (prophet, apostles, seventies and leaders with salaries) and ordinary members, is not new, I have known the church since 1990 and in these decades I have seen a little of everything, not for that negative .
If you do not think as the majority you are judged as an apostate, not always what the prophets and apostles say is a revelation, many times it is only their opinion of life, if people do not see the conference, they do not attend, they move away from the gospel It is for multiple reasons, however, I do not think things are different, we will never all agree.
In Chile, we have many inactive, closed churches and others that have been sold or are for sale, and that is not only because of the leadership that is not suitable, but also because the Church should not be treated as a company, even if it is. They are people with feelings and needs, nobody is perfect, not even the prophet or apostles. Lack more humility and accept that Jesus is the example to follow, not the people.
Hopefully after this pandemic passes, things will be more stable for the gospel and finally the church will be strengthened and grow as it should be in Chile and in the world.
Closer temples are still needed, not only in Chile but in many countries.
Cheers
I'm not sure why there is the need to worry about the informal usage for members. Referring to members as Mormons is an informal term.
Informal: Not in the usual manner; not according to custom; as an informal visit.
The very way it is used as in it's not the usual or customary way is by it's virtue informal.
The only way you get rid of the usage of Mormon is to make it a derogatory epithet. Unless and until then-the word, regardless of what anyone or leader states, is going to be around for a long time.
@Matt, with just 6 weeks till October 2021 Conference weekend, will you be releasing your updated Future Temple locations map and Top 10 choices for discussion among your followers here on the site? So those who choose to, can make their own "10 Ten choices list".
Thank you.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1W60CDwd4qDDMA3tW74z8g-2WxNw&ll=0%2C0&z=1
John Pack Lambert, your frustration is certainly understandable. At times, I have also run into brick walls trying to resolve issues relating to Wikipedia articles about the Church. That being said, I'm not convinced that raising complaints about the issue here would be the best or most appropriate approach to get a resolution. In my efforts to make headqay on these matters, the nature of the problem seems to be the fact that Wikipedia cannot use primary sources, and relies on independent coverage from secondary sources. Above and beyond that, however, is the fact that a majority of sources which are considered to be sufficieently independent from the Church are still using the terms that the Church discourages. If more of those sources were opting to use the correct terminology, then implementing something similar on Wikipedia would be less problematic.
Above and beyond that, I have continued on my end to try and figure out how to get Wikipedia to accept sources covering significant Church developments to be seen as sufficiently independent of the Church. I have been in particular communication with a relatively new follower of articles about the Church, and he has been offering some suggestions of work-arounds I could pursue on this isssue.
But that leads me to again explain another element of this problem. It seems that there is a prfound shortage of individual editors putting in sufficient work towards solving these issues with articles about Church topics. And it's also true that there are too many editors who seem to want an instant fix that will enable the guidelines to be implemented on Wikipedia immediately and permanently. Making changes to articles that have had long-standing unchanged guidelines and manuals of style takes time and effort. And right now, Wikipedia is lacking sufficient help from people willing to make the effort to affect such changes.
Because there aren't enough of us willing and able to search for and work towards such fixes, and because there are too many people that want the Church's MOS to be implemented instantaneously, while those same people are merely complaining about the problem or insisting that Wikipedia comply immediately, those few of us who are trying to work on fixing what is broken about the policies, while also defending the usage of the current MOS whuile we are trying to work towards solutions in a way that is both proactive and effective, any of us trying anything to fix those same problems are literally running around in circles getting nowhere.
So with all due respect, I'd suggest to anyone who doesn't like Wikipedia's policies and guidelines about Church-related subjects as they currently stand that they take time to first understand the relevant policies as currently crafted, and why they need to be upheld until something better can be figured out. The logical next step would be to be a proactive part of the deliberations and discussions in order to help figure out what is broken and how to fix it, at which point updated guidelines relating to articles about the Church can be crafted and upheld as the new status quo.
I understand your frustration, JPL. I really do. At the same time, I'm reminded of the old adage that "no situation is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse." I believe the easiest fix to these ongoing issues is to find and recruit people to work within the current framework while taking steps towards fixing what is broken with the policies as they currently are. If that can be done, and if the policies can be updated, there won't be as much of a need to get frustrated and/or complain about the situation.
I've been in a position where I have tried to pursue every avenue opened to me in recent months. One result of those efforts occurred just recently, when I was able to connect with someone who has some administrative role with Wikipedia and has just recently become interested in following and contributing content to articles about the Church. This admin has been helpful in retroactively assessing some of the discussions that led to past deletions of articles about Church leaders. This individual has also provided some feedback about how I can find workarounds to the current policies that have led to past decisions to delete articles about current and former Church leaders.
But I likely wouldn't have gotten to that point on this issue if I had focused my energy on complaining about the current issues, rather than working towards resolving them. I apologize if that assessment mischaracterizes you or whatever you might have tried to do on your end about this. Insofar as I have been able to ascertain, the problem is that there aren't nearly enough people willing to accept and work within the current guidelines while also trying proactively to resolve those issuess. And the issue ofj the references to the name of the Church will require more than just siginficant changes to Wikipedia policies about such articles. It will be an almost impossible situation to resolve as long as a majority of secondary sources are opting against adopting the 2018 guidelines. Having said that, I'll apologize for the sermon and get off of my soapbox for the time being.
Historia, I'm sorry to hear that about Chile. The church culture in Utah is very toxic and I want to leave it as soon as I can, but I guess it can be a problem anywhere. What I really can't stand is people's inability to differentiate their own political or cultural lens from the actual content of the gospel. Indeed, "if you do not think as the majority you are judged as an apostate." Even Elder Uchtdorf got a lot of flack around here when people found out he supported the "wrong" presidential candidate.
gte11i, I'm not a fan of how fast the Church did a 180 from spending millions of dollars on a global ad campaign to promote the Mormon nickname, to calling the Mormon nickname a major victory for Satan, but I do think shifting away from it is the right move overall. I think the word carries too much baggage. When you think of "Mormon culture", you think of white people in Utah who like green Jell-O, have bizarrely misspelled names, say "Oh my heck," and so on. I think the word is a very real obstacle to being perceived and taken seriously as a viable world religion for everyone.
I wonder what the costs and benefits of having Wikipedia pages are. They ask for donations, I wonder if many contribute.
Any temple announcements?
How about new stakes?
I have contributed over 400,000 edits to Wikipedia. Earlier this week I was trying to increase the proper use of the name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Wikipedia and to improve the level of using the term "Latter-day Saints}. In the process I became uncharitable and rashly attacked some words as hate speech. I then became defensive, and was blocked. Then I was cornered and asked to confess if I had ever had any other accounts. I felt like confessing would make things worse for me and I lied and said I had not. When confronted more I admitted I had two very short term accounts. Now I am not allowed to edit Wikipedia at all. I feel numb. There is a slight chance my ability to edit will be restonred in a month or so, but it is far from certain. I am so discoraged. I seem never to be able to do the right thing. I alwasy get way too worked up about how I feel.
I am not sure I will ever be OK. Editing Wikipedia was by far the most enjoyable thing I did. To be blocked for editing it is just plain horrible. I hate my life.
My life has been torn apart by trying to defend the proper usage of Latter-day Saint and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. True, it is my own fault that I panicked and tried to create a second account on Wikipedia, and true I did not have to be so defensive about it. Still, my underlying frustration at not being able to in any way effect any change at all in the words being used around The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints grows larger. As does my sense of isoltation in that I feel no one understands at all where I am coming from.
The cost of Wikipedia is not controlling the messaging at all, and always having to find ways to balance your natural desire to speak the actual truth with a demand that sources be covered in a balanced way. I was able to do much of this well, but at times I get way too worked up over things. The debate on use of the full name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and referring to its members as Latter-day Saints just went too far. I got too worked up.
@JPL
Good for you for fighting the good fight and following the Prophet's counsel about honoring the true name of the Church of Jesus Christ. :)
Nicholson, your take on LDS/Mormon Utah culture is different than most people’s worldwide. Most would think polygamy first, which is not even true of the official faith, but a few thousand live up to that trope all the same, claiming for the media that they are truly Mormon. White, okay. Most people think of Utah Mormons as clannish, but that is ignorance as well. Although, plenty of non-members in the state, and apparently you, think of Church members as oppressive and group thinkers.
Please move on and out and benefit the faith somewhere else, in the “mission field” beyond the “Zion Curtain”.
Go forth and do great things, as we say in the Army.
North Rexburg update: the rumored temple parcel has officially changed hands to the Church, per the Madison County Parcel Viewer.
Recently organized 1st District in the East African country of Burundi, "Bujumbura Burundi District - 2182467".
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=-3.626312,29.86733&z=9&m=google.hybrid&layers=stakecenter&q=Bujumbura%20Burundi%20District&find=stake:2182467
6 Aug 27, 2021 Bujumbura Burundi District
Which includes the Bujumbura 1st, 2nd and 3rd Branches.
JPL, it's time to get a new hobby! I don't know if the church deserves us to suffer so much to defend issues that are not part of the gospel of Christ, but merely institutional questions. I mean, what difference does it make how the church is called for someone who strives to do good and spread his testimony in words and actions? More import is the example, not a distinction that is merely didactic. Sorry for my bad english
Christopher, you are very correct in your words. See my case, that I am a member of the church while a part of a leftist party in Brazil. I almost always feel alone and hated by those who should help me and be my friends. I can't even imagine serving in top leadership roles just for being progressive and opposing the ruling group. I think my Bishop is a fascist cooperator for Bolsonaro's government of evil. I wonder how Elder Uchtdorf must feel...
Christopher, after living in Utah and the East Coast, I recognize some cultural differences between the two. While my personality certainly fits in better on the East Coast, I wouldn’t consider Utah’s church culture toxic. I don’t know you, so perhaps this isn’t true of you, but in general I find that those who complain about church culture are often themselves guilty of gossiping, forming cliques, etc. I think this is true the world over, and perhaps just a reflection of human nature, because I also noticed this as a missionary, and I served in a country where the church is pretty new (and maybe you will like other places better! Different strokes for different folks.) This is illustrated in Daniel’s comment - Daniel, perhaps the reason you feel alone is because you condemn those you disagree with as fascists. I can imagine an attitude like that does make it hard to make friends at church. I have some strongly held and relatively uncommon political views that are at odds with both the American left and right, which makes it easy for me to fall into the trap of assuming everyone else is just evil. I have had to learn and remind myself that it is better to assume that either they have good intentions but are mistaken or that I, in spite of my best efforts am mistaken. This is both more charitable and really the only way to coexist happily in the world with people you may disagree with. It can be difficult to do, and I am not naturally the most charitable person so I can’t say I always succeed, but I do think it is the correct approach to take.
Christopher, after living in Utah and the East Coast, I recognize some cultural differences between the two. While my personality certainly fits in better on the East Coast, I wouldn’t consider Utah’s church culture toxic. I don’t know you, so perhaps this isn’t true of you, but in general I find that those who complain about church culture are often themselves guilty of gossiping, forming cliques, etc. I think this is true the world over, and perhaps just a reflection of human nature, because I also noticed this as a missionary, and I served in a country where the church is pretty new (and maybe you will like other places better! Different strokes for different folks.) This is illustrated in Daniel’s comment - Daniel, perhaps the reason you feel alone is because you condemn those you disagree with as fascists. I can imagine an attitude like that does make it hard to make friends at church. I have some strongly held and relatively uncommon political views that are at odds with both the American left and right, which makes it easy for me to fall into the trap of assuming everyone else is just evil. I have had to learn and remind myself that it is better to assume that either they have good intentions but are mistaken or that I, in spite of my best efforts am mistaken. This is both more charitable and really the only way to coexist happily in the world with people you may disagree with. It can be difficult to do, and I am not naturally the most charitable person so I can’t say I always succeed, but I do think it is the correct approach to take.
Alas, I couldn't form a clique if I wanted to :) If like-minded individuals exist in my ward, they're as afraid to speak up as I am. Not that I think politics per se should be a regular topic of discussion in church, of course, but they do influence the way people talk about things in general. If my bishop had been more liberal I know he wouldn't have given the worst Sunday school lesson I've ever been in, where he was adamant that all women need to be full-time homemakers and ONLY use their college educations to be better mothers. I know the Church taught that thirty years ago, but I truly don't know how someone in a YSA ward in a college town in 2021 could be so out of touch with reality. And I can't just let things like that slide because they have harmful real-life consequences for the people hearing them. I complained to the stake president. He agreed with me and promised to talk to the bishop, but that didn't undo the damage.
A few months ago in my ward someone bore her testimony that social justice isn't really justice. I must have missed where Jesus said that. Imagine the outrage if I'd born my testimony that social justice is a basic Christian obligation. Little things like this popping up here and there have a cumulative and unmistakable effect.
When members in Utah (and probably elsewhere) found out that Elder Uchtdorf supported Biden, they were outraged and confused that he "supported baby killers" and "voted against life". I don't know what church they've been attending that gave them the idea they should base their votes solely on the issue of abortion.
One of the high counselor's wives put together a book club for some people in the ward, and we read "Live Not By Lies", a very right-wing Christian book. I actually agreed with the author's main thesis but I had several nitpicks that I wrote down to discuss in a respectful manner. I felt it was a good thing that I had read this book to get outside my own biases, and that it would likewise be a good thing for me to share a different perspective than everyone else in the group. However, the entire discussion proceeded from the assumption that we all agreed with everything in the book and only needed to figure out how to apply its teachings in our lives. It didn't take me long to realize there was no point in me ever going back. Although this was not a church-sponsored function, it really illustrated the assumption that the others present were taking with them every Sunday, namely that being a Christian is inseparable from holding a certain set of political views.
And then there are Deseret News comments sections...
Anyway. I certainly agree that this is just human nature and not exclusive to any religion or political leaning. If current American members' ancestors had joined the Democrat Party en masse instead of the Republican, we would still have the same problem, just in the opposite direction.
One thing I heard regarding Wikipedia is that one of the founders left it recently over the direction it was taking and it appears from what I heard he is going to start another one. No domain was given so I am not sure if the site is even up yet or the domain that he may have gotten for it if so.
At our stake conference this weekend Elder Vern P. Stanfill said something very interesting. Maybe you've heard about this but it's news to me. He said the new temple for Helena Montana is being manufactured in Birmingham, AL and will be shipped by truck to be installed in its site. He said no one will be able to tell after it's built that it wasn't built on site. He also said that if this method works out well the church will likely ship manufactured temples all over the world. It sounded like there is also the possibility of having temporary or even mobile temples.
I imagine this may be what they are doing for some of the other remote area temples (like Elko NV).
It would be nice if people who have not spent their time and energy on something were not so quick to dismiss how others have.
President Russell M. Nelson gave a whe talk on the proper use of the name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Clearly this issue matters. Some of my impatirnt and combative ways to support and promote this usage were probably impolite, impractical and accomplished nothing. However getting people to refer to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints correctly is a worthwhile goal, it is just some of my encouraging it that may be less than ideal.
"Zion curtain" borders on hate speech.
The option that Utah is not a mission field is out of touch with the current reality. Less than half the population of Salt Lake County is members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
At one point the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were pushing very hard to stop the usage of "M-----" for polygamous groups. This argument is key to my point that etomology does not equal meaning. When some news organizations ran pictures of the Salt Lake Temple with articles on Warren Jeff's there was clearly a problem.
No one insisted on covering the whole early history of the Seventh Day Adventists when reports were published on David Koresh and the Branch Dividians.
Utah has an many African-American members of the US house as Michigan, and a far higher percentage.
We have 2 Latino general authorities who were resident in Utah when called. One lived all his life in Utah when not a fulltime missionary or mission president.
Elder Gong spent on the order of 15 years of his life resident in Utah.
Utah is more racially diverse than some are willing to acknowledge. There are lots of states in the US far less racially diverse.
@John Pack Lambert
Sorry to hear about the rough times, my friend!
I hope the Wikipedia restrictions you're experiencing don't last forever.
Know that you have the support of many of us here who have regularly read your comments over the past few years. :)
Exciting news! Open house and dedication for the Winnipeg Manitoba temple just announced!
October 9 - 23 for the open house, and then the dedication will be October 31.
This will be the first dedication outside the US to occur since the start of Covid-19.
I am looking forward to more dedications being announced soon, I guess it depends on how each country is doing with recovery.
Which one do you expect to be next?
JPL, I submitted my comments in reply to your complaints about Wikipedia before I was able to have time to read about what went down in relation to your edits and how that unfolded. I apologize if those previous comments were in any way unfair to you or failed to take the trauma you've experienced as a result of that situation into account. THat being said, having read about what happened in full, it's plain to me that the only reasons you were blocked from Wikipedia were a failure on your part to assume good faith on the part of other editors who were acting in good faith, and your unyielding insistance that Wikipedia immediately and instantaneuously comply with and uphold the guidelines released by the Church, when in fact, meaningful change on this issue can only occur with concentrated effort to be civil to and respectful of others (doing otherwise actually violates the spirit of guidelines, per what President Nelson has stated in the past on that), and it also takes meaningful effort in upholding the guidelines as they currently stand, rather than insisting they be changed to what we might like them to be, and going through the proper channels of establishing consensus for desired change. The only meaningful progress I've been able to make on this matter has come when I have found individuals who sympathize with the problems at hand and are willing to give me advice about navigating the difficult territory to establish meaningful change.
Those most recent efforts have led me to connect with the Wikipedia editor FormalDude, whom from my perspective sincerely wants to help Church members resolve the issues at hand. He's been able to make formal changes to the MOS that have explained that the usage of the "Mormon" terminology has been depricated by the Church in recent years. And as I've exchanged comments with him, he's been able to help me also figure out how to start assembling a criteria of notability that would specifically apply to current and former Church leaders at the general or local level, while also enabling the primary sources under any degree of control or ownership by the Church to be permissible and preferred for usage in articles about such leaders or subjects.
I was only able to get to the point where FormalDude was able to help me due to the fact that he's had administrative experience, and because he understands how frustrating the long-standing issues relating to Church articles have been for those of us who have worked around that, and that wouldn't have been possible if I had assumed on my end that anything he was doing or saying was being done or said in bad faith.
Additionally, the concentrated and often behind-the-scenes efforts I've consistently made to get to this point has directly resulted in my current interactions with FormalDude, all of which have been positive and indicative that he is acting in good faith, and is willing to help find and establish workarounds to the longstanding problems at hand. I have mentioned in the past that I've often taken extended breaks from editing Wikipedia at all in view of any frustration I've encountered trying to make progress on these issues.
So while I can see from your contribution list and the details surrounding your current block from Wikipedia that the block has deeply affected you on a personal level (and while I'm sorry for any additional stress, depression or anxiety that your current block may be causing you), if you are able to use the enforced time away from contributing to Wikipedia to prepare yourself to assume good faith and work towards solutions with consensus support, upholding the current guidelines while you work to fix what you perceive as broken with the current framework of the relevant policies and guidelines, then, as the Lord told Joseph Smith, "all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good." And I think He would also say to you: "Peace be unto thy soul. Thine adversity and thy afflictions shall be but a small moment. And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high. Thou shalt triumph over [this current situation]."
In the interim, I hope it also gives you comfort to know as well that FormalDude has actually taken some of your expressed concerns under advisement, and that his recent edits to the MOS section dealing with proper terminology have directly addressed some of the issues about which you expressed concern. In my exchanges with him, I got the impression that he does want you to return to regular editing on Church articles in the near future. In the meantime, he has asked me to help craft additional guidelines as applicable for future use in articles about the Church and its' leaders which will hopefully cut short any chance that past issues will resurface and become so probelmatic again. In the meantime, there has also been some productive discussion about the use of the "Mormon" and "Mormonism" terminology in articles that fall within the Latter Day Saint movement, and hopefully those discussions will culminate in a determination of a specific point at which to cut the usage of those terms when speaking about the Church within the last several decades.
I'm so sorry you're having to go through this, but hopefully this newest comment will give you reasons to believe that some of the concerns you raised are now being more fully considered in ways they haven't been before, and that subsequent fixes will be applied to all possible Church articles as the guidelines are more fully specified and as more people contribute to solutions and resolutions on this. Stay strong, JPL, and know that you are still very much valued as a good contributor to Wikipedia. I have heard chatter on my end that appears to indicate the hope that your editing privileges might be reinstated in full sooner rather than later, and if I can do anything to convince the powers-that-be to reinstate you sooner, I will gladly take such actions. Hope these subsequent comments from me will be helpful to you whenever they are moderated and approved for publication.
Eduardo, if my memory serves me correctly, you had recently asked in another thread if the Church has made any additional temple announcements. Aside from the weekly announcements relating to the phased reopening of temples (which are published every Tuesday), in mid-July, the Church News published the biographies for the first temple president and matron of the Abidjan Côte d'Ivoire Temple:
https://www.thechurchnews.com/callings/2021-07-15/new-temple-leaders-called-to-serve-in-ivory-coast-218982
Additionally, just this morning, the Newsroom announced the revised opening arrangements for the Winnipeg Manitoba Temple. Elder Gong will preside at the dedication of that temple as originally planned. The dedication will occur on Sunday October 31, just one week before the previously-announced dedication of the Pocatello idaho Temple. That will be preceded by an open house lasting roughly around 2-3 weeks, with no tours being given on the applicable Sundays, or on the Monday in October on which the Canadians celebrate Thanksgiving Day.
But interestingly enough, the Church is planning to hold the customary youth devotional on the Sunday one week before its' October 31 dedication, and the Church is planning for a minimum of 4 dedicatory sessions (but possibly including a fifth if need be) on October 31. The four sessions will be held at 8:00 AM, 10:00 AM, 12 noon; and 2:00 PM, with a fifth session (if needed) likely held at 4:00 PM.
Here are the articles that were published by the Church News and the Newsroom announcing those arrangements:
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2021-08-30/winnipeg-manitoba-temple-open-house-dedication-dates-223701
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/winnipeg-manitoba-temple-open-house-and-dedication
For anyone interested in my analysis of today's announcement, you can find that on my blog at the following web address:
https://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com/2021/08/breaking-temple-news-revised-opening.html
I anticipate (but cannot say for certain) that the Church will likely soon confirm the locations of the sites and the preliminary details for both the Eugene Oregon and Ephraim Utah Temples. In addition to that, there are around 20 temples, give or take one or two, for which I'm anticipating the announcement of opening or reopening arrangements, a groundbreaking, or at least a confirmation of the location and preliminary details. So I think that the next month before the October General Conference is likely to see a very high number of breaking news updates from the Church bout temples. And if anywhere close to the 20 temples do have further information announced, that will open the prospect that another double-digit number of new temples might easily be announced by President Nelson during the upcoming General Conference. Hope that addresses your question in that regard, and please let me know if you'd like more information from me on any of this. Thanks again.
brycen, I just now saw your question about which temple dedications or rededications might be announced, so I will address that. Both the Yigo GuaM and Quito Ecuador Temples are nearing completion, as a result of which either or both could have openinsg arrangements announced. The key difference between the two is that the Yigo Guam Temple had its' first president and matron announced a year ago, and they are already in Guam preparing for that temple's opening. Meanwhile, even with the Quito Ecuador Temple anticipated to be one of the next to have initial opening dates announced, the Church has not yet called the first president for that temple.
Meanwhile, the latest COVID-19 updates from Brazil are very discouraging. Medical professionals are reportedly extremely frustrated with the fact that national, state, and local leaders arten't taking COVID-19 seriously enough, and that's even in spite of the fact that key Brazilian government officials have previously tested positive for that. Unless the medical professionals in Brazil or providing support for the nation can find legal recourse to enforce COVID-19 recommendations and guidelines in the nation, there will likely be an extreme lag in the Church being able to announce revised opening dates for the Rio de Janeiro Brazil Temple, and it could also delay the initial announcement of opening dates for the temple in Belem Brazil.
Meanwhile, both before, during and after the recently-conclude 2020 Tokyo Olympics and the currently-ongoing 2020 Tokyo Paralympics, Japn in general and Tokyo in particular has had similar (but not nearly as severe) surges in COVID-19 conditions. If those conditions can be turned around because the Japanese and Tokyo government officials are heeding the advice of experts, the Church could potentially hold the rededication for the Tokyo Japan Temple before the rededication (and perhaps even before the beginning of the open house) for the Wasington D.C, Temple. And in New Zealand, the fact that prime minister Jacinda Ardern, a former Latter-day Saint whose uncle, Elder Ian S. Ardern, now serves as President of the Pacific Area, has been taking quick action both against the initial COVID-19 conditions and in response to subsequent additional problems due to variants thereof, it would not shock me at all if the rededication of the Hamilton New Zealand were scheduled to occur at some point between the beginning of next year and the weekend of the April 2022 General Conference.
Additionally, with the smaller population of citizens in general and Latter-day Saints in particular both in Praia Cabo Verde and San Juan Puerto Rico, reopening arrangements for both of those temples appear likely within the first and second quarters of next year, but that could be pushed up. In the meantime, the Saratoga Springs Utah Temple, being in Utah County, where despite breakthrough cases and COVID-19 variants, COVID-19 numbers are trending upward but still not insurmountable to fix, that temple could be dedicated soon after its' completion, as long as the people in my home state in general and my county in particular take getting things under control seriously again.
And with the early announcement of the president for the new temple under construction in Abidjan, the first Ivory Coast Temple and Richmond Virginia may be two others to watch. In the meantime, after the rededications of the temples in Mesa Airzona, Washington DC. Hamilton New Zealand, and Tokyo Japan, the rededications of the Columbus Ohio and Hong Kong China Temples could take place during any of the final six months of next year. Hope this information is helpful to you.
JPL: Your passion for truth, correct details, and spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ should not get you down for too long. Frustration and disappointment, we all have it to degrees. Keep going, brother!
Seriously, Jesus has fought and will fight your battles. He has mine, he has my back even when I doubt Him. He does not fail those with faith in him.
I agree with the diversity in Utah. I blogged about it a bit ago, I will try and find the post. Racial, cultural, and religious diversity abound in the Beehive State. And many converts join in the state with the highest U.S. baptismal rate, as far as I know.
Latinos make up a large part of Utah, for one, perhaps higher percentages than most states. It is a hard demographic to count, however.
Pardon my sarcasm, at times I think I use humor to both make a point and to lessen the complete or seeming over rigidity of some opinions or views.
Get on the bus, the Good Ship of Zion. The curtain is a veil that may obscure the view for some, but it is worth passing through and entering, and enjoying.
Actually until 1968, Democratic candidates for President routinely won in Utah. Shocking, but true.
The Church employs thousands of volunteers and paid employees alike so why is it up to some random bloggers to institute changes on Wikipedia? Its clearly not an urgent priority at Church headquarters.
Fitting that Winnipeg Temple is dedicated on Halloween. October 31 is also the date, Section 138 of the Doctrine and Covenants ( Vision of the Redemption of the Dead) was accepted by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Tweleve.
The Spencer’s, I believe the Bentonville Arkansas temple is being built this way as well. I’ve seen pictures of large pieces being hauled in and put in place rather than building as we normally would. It looks nice. I hope it works!
As a former LDS missionary who was champion of a reality show and assumed to be a homosexual on TV always says, "Brazil is depleted"! And it's mainly the federal executive's fault, the States and Municipalities are trying to do something
Given the size of Helena, the way they are doing it seems right based on other news I have seen on an unofficial but faithful member site, which said a company had in its portfolio matter they were going to do 'a large church project', and that a company had set up offices in Salt Lake for similar purposes, if not the same one.
The Elko and Casper temples are planned to be the same size as Helena, Casper is on what I believe to be the old highway before I-25, and Elko will be right off the freeway on land that could easily have been used for a truck stop.
This may also explain why we have not had some of the expected announcements, they want to see what works and what does not, then adjust, then really go at it. I see fewer temples the next couple conferences, mostly on the larger side, then a surge once Helena is finished and the process of building them that way proven.
I do not expect a movable temple at all, the issue is the baptistry which must be below ground level, that is doctrinal. Current
I don’t expect we’ll have a moveable temple structure any time soon (though we know Moses had one). At some time in the future god’s presence, as signified by a cloud by day and a fire by night, will be above every dwelling like it was above The temple in Moses’s day, so to the extent those dwellings are mobile, so too would be his presence.
As far as baptisms being below ground, that is s symbol of a doctrine. The symbol can be adapted. And has been. Visit a meetinghouse in Manhattan or the temple in Manhattan and you’ll see what I mean.
Yeah, I wrote the article about the construction method of the Helena Temple. I was tipped of about the information third hand. However, I only used information that I found on the internet as sources in my article. I took a lot of pain to thoroughly cite everything. I have sense been made aware that there may be some delays stemming from material shortages.
http://www.thisweekinmormons.com/2021/05/prefabricated-modular-temples-how-a-new-method-could-accelerate-temple-construction/
The Spencers,
Thanks for the information from Elder Stanfill. I wasn't aware of the location of the manufacturing hub. I do think Elko and Casper will be constructed this was based on the size. I highly doubt the there will be mobile temples any time soon. The sections have to attached to one another. I believe the idea that a baptistry being underground is a myth. most temple baptistries are on the ground floor of the building and the water level is at or even slightly above ground level.
DeAnn,
The builders of the Bentonville temple are using pre-cast concrete to assemble the exterior. Then the rooms are then constructed on the inside. This has been used for many temples for the last decade. The difference for Helena is that the rooms are constructed in a factory 70% to 90% finished, assembled on site, and then the exterior is attached.
Here is my post about diversity in Utah:
http://clinchitsoonerorlater.blogspot.com/2020/12/utah-then-and-now-mostly-now-almost-2021.html?m=0
I feel for you, Christopher. I feel like you would be at home in any Mexican ward, if you knew Spanish. People simply don't get into politics here, domestic or foreign, and I think that is good.
It pains me to see so many American members delve into politics and try to weaponize the politics into a Church structure, as if to think that the as-yet-unrealized Latter-day Zion is going to be a microcosm of Republican or Democrat living. How sad and shortsighted that is.
I would think of the ideal of Zion being like the Islamic Ummah, at least in theory. The Ummah literally means the community of believers, of one heart and one mind in submission to Allah. What is interesting is that the root word for Ummah is the Arabic term for "mother" as if every person present is from the same mother.
We see that symbolism ad nauseum in the New Testament as the Church was the believers in Jesus and the Church is described as the bride. Israel likewise was the bride and its inhabitants the "Daughters of Zion."
Russell M Nelson and his compatriots in the Twelve likewise are preaching this idea that Zion will be composed of all nations of the world. There will be no nationalisms, one is not better because they are American, or Mexican, or Brazilian, or Russian. One is only better according to how they let God prevail in our lives. And combining our best practices from all over the world, we will find true Zion.
This True Zion will NOT be found in the DesNews comment sections. Nor in the Trib comment sections for that matter.
Hello again, everyone! The Church announced this morning that Elder Dean M. Davies, formerly of the Presiding Bishopric and recently a General Authority Seventy, had passed away at the age of 69 following a lengthy battle with cancer:
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2021-09-01/elder-dean-davies-dies-of-cancer-presiding-bishopric-223936
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-dean-m-davies-dies
His 70th birthday would have been observed in just 4 days, and he would have been inclded among 6 others who are anticipated to be granted emeritus status in General Conference next month. Just wanted to make note of that here.
Recently organized "Twin Falls Idaho East Stake - 2180847", which includes the Eastbrooke, Twin Falls 1st, 7th, 11th, 15th, 19th and YSA 1st wards.
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=42.58109,-114.416348&z=13&m=google.hybrid&layers=stakecenter&q=Twin%20Falls%20Idaho%20East%20Stake&find=stake:2180847
19 Sep 01, 2021 Twin Falls Idaho East Stake
... so has there been any new stakes or districts, or the opposite? Site hasn't been updated in awhile :/
I am tired of people not complying with the request to speak of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Latter-day Saints. President Nelson has asked that we stop using abbreviations and nicknames.
Hello again, everyone! The Church made an announcement this morning that the temple announced for Eugene Oregon will officially be named the Willamette Valley Oregon Temple. The location and an exterior rendering have also been confimed and released. Here are the Newsroom and Church News reports on that:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/official-name-announced-for-temple-to-be-built-in-oregon
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2021-09-02/name-site-rendering-willamette-oregon-temple-223932
The exterior of that temple bears more than a slight resemblance to the Moses Lake Washington Temple. I have provided some analysis on today's development:
https://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com/2021/09/breaking-temple-news-location-rendering.html
My thanks once again to you all.
On the insertion of political things in church situations, it does not appear to be an issue in meetings, but it does turn up in the halls and other places.
An area seventy in the midwest spoke at a stake conference, and said a few weeks before he was at another one, and afterwards he heard an argument in the hall. Said the argument was over the last election, but did not say obviously what the argument was specifically over.
That, among probably many other things, was likely a catalyst for President Oaks specking about political matters in the way he did at general conference.
But politicized sermons were common in other churches, likely not even a larger portion of them but it was in some of the more loosely aggregated independent churches that it was done, based on the social media posts seen the last few weeks before the last election.
Both of the above together and separately were likely what may have led to the language about politics being placed in the handbook recently.
Ogden, Utah, has a strong Latino population. There were also quite a number of African Americans, Asians, Native Americans, and Pacific Islanders (with varying numbers of each demographic, of course, but the Ogden metro area is hardly homogeneous).
The area I lived in in Salt Lake was even more diverse, with much higher members of Pacific Islanders.
Utah County had a fairly diverse population attending UVU and BYU back in the day when I was a student at BYU from 2005-2009. BYU could always stand more diversity, though.
Some churches have a long tradition of very strident, sepcific and focused political advocacy.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a policy of encouraging members to be politically involved but not endorsing any candidates.
I was once in a glass where a teacher expressed his disdain for a previous governor of our state and how he was glad that that governor had had something come up and had missed the temple open house. I found that statement to be highly offensive.
I just tried to help... I won't say any more about it
My friend, I do not condemn them. In fact, being a Public Manager by vocation, I try to make them understand things that are not so simple and that are not published in the political press. However, the fact that most members belong to the meritocratic right and are against the Lula administration, while I belong to that historical leader's left party and because I have also worked with the trade union movement, makes people turn away in fear of me. I don't intend to stay away, I was born in the gospel and I've known these people since childhood, but I feel that we can't go beyond trivial conversations because of these political differences that affect coexistence. Sorry for my bad english
John Pack Lambert, I understand where your frustration is coming from. I genuinely do. And to a certain point, I agree with you that there is room for improvement in the way the world in general speaks about the Church and its' members. But I have spent some additional time in the last few days carefully poring over information I could find about the original request and what was subsequently said about that. That search led me to read President Nelson's October 2018 remarks more closely. And some key portions of that address seem relevant when considering the frustration about the issues.
After making reference to the fact that emphasizing the correct name of the Church was an inspired directive to President Nelson, the prophet then went on to share the following additional counsel: "If we will be patient and if we will do our part well, the Lord will lead us through this important task. After all, we know that the Lord helps those who seek to do His will, just as He helped Nephi accomplish the task of building a ship to cross the sea.
"We will want to be courteous and patient in our efforts to correct these errors. Responsible media will be sympathetic in responding to our request." In the second paragraph I just cited, President Nelson point-blank referenced "responsible media" being sympathetic in responding to the request. It seems to be a stretch to me to assume or assert that Wikipedia would fall under the umbrella of "responsible media".
Since 2018, I have carefully perused any content that has been released by the Church regarding the utilization of the correct name. And I have not seen anything that would indicate specifically that Wikipedia had the same degree of responsibility as reputable media outlets to correctly use the name of the Church.
That being said, JPL, if you or anyone else has access to any source that says President Nelson's guidelines are meant to apply to Wikipedia as well, I'd welcome the chance to review all such sources. But above and beyond that, in the passages from President Nelson's talk that I quoted above, the prophet twice mentioned being courteous and being patient. I can't say this for certain, but from what I gather, the Wikipedia guidelines about Church-related articles currently have been in place at least since I started editing there in 2006. Unfortunately, due to the nuances, red tape, and policies that need to be tweaked, it's not surprising to me at all that Wikipedia is no closer to adopting the guidelines that may not have been meant to apply to the organzation.
Having said that, since his original remarks on the subject also twice mentioned the fact that Church members should be patient and courteous in working around these issues, and bearing in mind that some of the policies in question are at least a decade or more old, fixing them will take a lot of patience, courtesy, diligence, and consistent effort. And as far as Wikipedia is concerned, that also means that we need to be assuming good faith on the part of all with whom we are conversing in efforts to achieve the outcome we would like to see.
And when it comes to Wikipedia, we also are reliant upon secondary sources, since there is no current independent notability standard established for outlets like the Newsroom or the Church News. Notability guidelines regarding the Church, the leaders thereof, and subjects relating thereunto are in the process of being drafted and implemented, and once those guidelines are in place, it will likely impact the terminology Wikipedia uses in a multitude of ways that may not currently seem clear.
So I do understand (and to a certain extent share) your expressed frustration on the matter of Wikipedia articles about the Church, but there is a correct way to approach this issue, and there is an incorrect way. Unless I have missed something, there has not been an official position taken by the Church in relation to whether the guidelines released in 2018 directly apply to Wikipedia, and even if such a statement exists, since there are nuances relating to manuals of style, appropriate sourcing, and how that is featured on Wikipedia, change takes time.
And repeatedly insisting that Wikipedia needs to immediately adopt the guidelines and comply fully therewith won't do much good, and it certainly won't lead to the kind of lasting changes for which the reemphasis of the guidelines were given. While I do get (and certainly share) your frustration on this issue to a certain point, at the same time, President Nelson has urged patience on the part of those supporting the guidelines. And Church leaders have reemphasized the importance of patience and civility in discussions relating to these guidelines.
It appears that, for whatever reason, some of those trying to work through this issue overly emphasize the implementation of the correct terminology while ignoring the part aabout being patient and civil. Lasting change takes time, and, speaking personally, I'd prefer to do whatever it takes to ensure that the changes that are made will effectively be the new status quo going forward. With patience, time, and consistent efforts on our ends to be more civil in the process of working towards those lasting changes, I am fully optimistic that we will find more sympathy on the matter. And more than that, I am also convinced that the Lord will bless our efforts in that regard.
Although President Nelson did emphasize the guidelines, he also emphasized civility and patience, and I think a lot of people overlook thapart of his remarks. For myself, I am fully satisfied that my efforts to find meaningful middle-ground on this or any issue will lead to lasting changes. Maybe not as quickly as I would like, and maybe not in all the ways I would personally prefer, but meaningful change will occur through consistent efforts.
Again, I apologize if I have in any way mischaracterized your expressed opinions and the issues that have followed. My hope is that after your current block from Wikipedia expires that you will be able to clearly see the feedback you've offered being reflected in the adjustments that have been made, are in progress, or may yet be forthcoming. Hang in there, JPL, and stay strong.
Yes, some parts, like the dome on the spire came pre-assembled, but the temple by and large has been constructed on-site. I drive by it every day on my way to work, and it's been exciting to watch the gradual progress.
Across from the Walmart?
Bentonville is by the I-49 freeway, aouthbound side, just before the McCullom Road exit. I don't think there is a Walmart that close to it.
However, while I have not confirmed it, the Orem Temple may be visible from the Sandhill Road Walmart in Orem. The spire is supposed to be over 200 feet tall and all of it but the actual topper is up. There is a large building that began life as a Homebase store (defunct) that may be in the way of most of the temple being visible.
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