Positive membership and unit growth in all these nations.
Slower than wanted by the faithful in parts, noted, but progress all the same. Sis the huge hurricane damage and aftermath in Abaco and I think Grand Bahama Island, IVO Freeport, retard missionary efforts and units there?
It would be amazing to see a temple in Nassau one day, I guess more likely than Freeport, but for now the numbers do not justify it.
Dominican Republic is more likely to get a second temple before then. Puerto Rico is small enough for one temple to service the most members, I would guess. DR is bigger, and has more members and overall potential.
Off topic, but I was thinking again about the reestablishment of some limited Church activity, mainly sacrament meetings. Frankly by next weekend, it seems like we will be the only sizable Christian denomination to not hold meetings of some sort in Germany, and my guess is that religious meetings will likely be legal in nearly all of Europe (perhaps with the exception of the UK) by next month sometime. I'm still not a fan of waiting on every corner of the Earth to be out of the worst for their local COVID-19 outbreak, because this will likely take anywhere from a year to three years - and from a spiritual standpoint, this would be devastating, especially for single members without access to the sacrament, and especially when it is completely unneccessary given the local conditions. My best guess is that the First Presidency agrees and is monitoring the situation on a national or, at the very least, regional level, rather than a global one.
I could see something like this implemented where religious meetings are legal and infection rates are at a reasonably low level (i.e., the Pacific, East Asia, prospectively parts of Europe):
+ Discretion at the stake and district level, with overall guidance from the area presidency. For example, the Europe Area authorizes meetings to go ahead, but when there is a severe local outbreak in the Vienna Stake boundaries (just as an example), that stake president can pull the plug. This is the same procedure we use with natural disasters, for example. + Limited size of attendance. In larger congregations or where social distancing in the chapel is not possible, congregations should be split, with different meeting times each week or on/off weeks. Strict separation of groups. + No singing during hymns. + Masks required for all in attendance, and single-use gloves for those administering the sacrament. + No traveling, including for callings. You can only attend the congregation whose boundaries you live in. + Only investigators who began attending from the beginning of the reopening are allowed to attend, and become part of the rotation. Investigators found later, but before regular meetings take place again, should not attend, to assure that groups remain steady and manageable in size. Missionaries should minister to them and administer the sacrament to them only if deemed appropriate by the bishop or branch president. + No classes - they encourage close contact and speaking, which increases the chances of transmission of the virus. Also no in-person interviews, meetings, etc. + In general, meeting length should be kept to a minimum and should ideally focus on the actual ordinance of the sacrament. Somewhere in the vicinity of a 30 to 45-minute service seems reasonable.
I just noticed from the analysis above that we are close to 100 Temples in the US alone (93 as of 2019). If we include the ones announced so far this year, then we're at 96. If we include the previous announced or built of the early Restoration, then we're right around 100. I wonder if 4 will be announced this October to round out the current number to 100? That would be a nice touch for this bicentennial year.
I hope they make a big deal out of the dedication (and maybe hold a cultural celebration) for whichever temple happens to be dedicated as #100 for the US; also for whichever happens to be dedicated as #200 for the world total.
It's interesting how Canada lost membership from 1914 to 1920, but I believe the Cardston Temple was being built. The numbers of 9 to 10 k Saints might be similar to what a small temple has had in places like Monticello or Snowflake, Gila Valley or even Anchorage. Surely Winnipeg will surely have less when it is built. Also, Canada is about to surpass 200k. That is good. Maybe 5 U.S. states have that many. Possibly 6 with Oregon? I know Canada is a huge country, just for perspective. Nice to see new access in places like Woodstock, either New Brunswick or Nova Scotia. I guess between Maine and N.B., the former would be a better candidate for a new temple. One in Maine would help a few members in Canada.
In Canada, there are actually so much diversity of different ethnic immigrant communities and languages, especially in the larger cities, that having one English ward to cover the area is not enough. While there are a few Spanish, Mandarin, Korean branches or wards in Canada, there is so more potential if more targeted language groups or branches were created to better reach the overall population. For example, over 2% speak Punjabi (Eastern Pakistan, NW India), other languages include Tagalog, Cantonese, Italian, Arabic, etc.
I think we need to stop default identifying the language of units. My French missionary companion always said in the long run in the YS we needed to learn how to have multi-lingual populations all in one ward.
The one Maine could be in Portland, Augusta, or Bangor. But I wonder if there would be 2 temples sharing the same city name as we have the Portland Oregon Temple.
I think it's not a great situation, but given government guidance at least in Germany (but probably elsewhere in countries that have gotten the outbreak more or less under control), this is what might need to happen. Tracking people and infections (which continues to be the highest priority from the government side) becomes exponentially harder if visitors walk into Church meetings. With members, we have addresses and phone numbers and ministering brothers and sisters who can be informed if anyone has developed symptoms, but with investigators, you may not have any of that.
I continue to believe that the minimum operating standard, and the first priority at reopening, should be that Church members are able to renew covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
I don't think church meetings will be fully back to normal until at least fall, if the cancellation of every pageant, trek, camp, and FSY this summer is any indication.
My Canadian companion back on the mission (from Toronto) told me they had discontinued all the Spanish Wards up in Canada around the year 2,000, in order to integrate better with the English Wards. Does anyone here know any more about that?
L. Chris Jones, the South American nation is spelled with two "o"s, so it's Colombia in that case rather than Columbia, and the conversation above, unless I am mistaken, was talking about temples that had similar elements in the name of the city.
@Johnathan Reese Whiting According to https://maps.lds.org GTA (Greater Toronto Area) has 3 Spanish Wards, 1 Mandarin Ward, 1 Cantonese Ward. Montreal also has a Spanish Ward in their French Stake. London, Ontario has a Spanish Branch. Vancouver BC also has 2 Spanish Wards, 2 Mandarin Wards, and Korean Branch. Calgary has 2 Spanish Wards (and a Tagalog Ward). Edmonton also has a Spanish Ward.
So there are making some inroads, but the perception in Canada and in other parts of the world, that the Church is "White and American Church", makes it difficult culturally to reach out to different ethnic and immigrant groups in Canada. While there may not a critical mass for a branch or ward for additional languages at the moment, at least English Wards should be open to have different language Sunday School Classes, Come Follow Me Groups, Cottage Meetings, FHEs, etc as needed.
I do wonder if someday the Church will publish more member group info, perhaps not the actual addresses or phone numbers (those could be gained by those in the area who want to meet with the group, by contacting the local missionaries or leaders), but maybe the existence and name of the group as advertising to members who've just moved into the area, or investigators who'd like to attend. Just so people know the Church still exists in that area, even though there's no branch or ward. It might also help those groups grow into branches or wards more quickly.
Another idea would be to make sure the group has a Facebook page or some other type of social media platform for contact purposes. Thoughts?
Montreal had two Spanish wards, the Zarahemla and Monte Rey wards, when I served there as a Spanish-speaking missionary from 1995-1997 (along with two areas in Ottawa, one of them an English-speaking one), and I heard that another had been created on what is known as the South Shore after I left, probably at the existing meetinghouse in Greenfield Park (or possibly Lemoyne, now part of Longueuil). My last area included all of the south shore, and I taught English classes at that building, though our Spanish-speaking members and investigators went into the city to the Monte Rey ward. What is the name of the remaining ward?
I've answered my own question using the Meetinghouse Locator. It appears there are two YSA branches, one of them French-speaking, meeting in the Rue Gilford building, a narrow 4-story former police station (less than a block from a metro stop), that the Monte Rey ward met in while I was there.
I had the location slightly off on the new Spanish-speaking ward- the Victoria ward meets in a new building right next to the Montreal temple, and appears to be still active (apart from COVID-19, that is).
The Zarahemla ward is still operational and meets alongside a French ward in the stake center.
Both Zarahemla and Monte Rey were large wards, and I didn't think a huge number of the members in the latter were from the area now covered by the Victoria ward. So I am surprised by the closing of Monte Rey. I wonder if a lot of the members ended up leaving for legal or economic reasons- the adults were mostly first-generation immigrants.
One other thing I found interesting from the Meetinghouse Locator:
The Greenfield Park building I mentioned now has a French-speaking ward in addition to the English-speaking one, and both say they start at 9 with sacrament meeting first. I don't remember there being two chapels, but I actually didn't spend much time there apart from the English classes we taught.
Sorry about my spelling. I was just adding my thoughts on similar names. It's just spelled different due to the language difference. Also the Vancouver BC temple was also mentioned. I hope for a second temple in BC such as Victoria island someday.
No worries there, Chris. As far as a second temple in British Colombia, based on a tip from someone actually living in and familiar with that region, a temple in Victoria appears likely sooner rather than later. I am hoping that will be one of the next (if not very next) Canadian cities to get a temple.
Sorry. Now I've done it too. The Candian province and South Carolinian temple city are both "Columbia", as is Washington D.C. (District of Columbia), all with a "u" while the South American nation is "Colombia", with two "o"s being the intereting anomaly and the odd-one-out. Reminds me of how, while working with the Church's extraction program (the precursor to what we now know as indexing), in the records I did, which all came from the Philippines, it took me a while to remind myself that there is one "l" and two "p"s in the name of that group of islands, not two "l"s and one "p". Geograpical locations can sure be interesting sometimes, can't they?
27 comments:
Positive membership and unit growth in all these nations.
Slower than wanted by the faithful in parts, noted, but progress all the same. Sis the huge hurricane damage and aftermath in Abaco and I think Grand Bahama Island, IVO Freeport, retard missionary efforts and units there?
It would be amazing to see a temple in Nassau one day, I guess more likely than Freeport, but for now the numbers do not justify it.
Dominican Republic is more likely to get a second temple before then. Puerto Rico is small enough for one temple to service the most members, I would guess. DR is bigger, and has more members and overall potential.
And there this Cuba...
Off topic, but I was thinking again about the reestablishment of some limited Church activity, mainly sacrament meetings. Frankly by next weekend, it seems like we will be the only sizable Christian denomination to not hold meetings of some sort in Germany, and my guess is that religious meetings will likely be legal in nearly all of Europe (perhaps with the exception of the UK) by next month sometime. I'm still not a fan of waiting on every corner of the Earth to be out of the worst for their local COVID-19 outbreak, because this will likely take anywhere from a year to three years - and from a spiritual standpoint, this would be devastating, especially for single members without access to the sacrament, and especially when it is completely unneccessary given the local conditions. My best guess is that the First Presidency agrees and is monitoring the situation on a national or, at the very least, regional level, rather than a global one.
I could see something like this implemented where religious meetings are legal and infection rates are at a reasonably low level (i.e., the Pacific, East Asia, prospectively parts of Europe):
+ Discretion at the stake and district level, with overall guidance from the area presidency. For example, the Europe Area authorizes meetings to go ahead, but when there is a severe local outbreak in the Vienna Stake boundaries (just as an example), that stake president can pull the plug. This is the same procedure we use with natural disasters, for example.
+ Limited size of attendance. In larger congregations or where social distancing in the chapel is not possible, congregations should be split, with different meeting times each week or on/off weeks. Strict separation of groups.
+ No singing during hymns.
+ Masks required for all in attendance, and single-use gloves for those administering the sacrament.
+ No traveling, including for callings. You can only attend the congregation whose boundaries you live in.
+ Only investigators who began attending from the beginning of the reopening are allowed to attend, and become part of the rotation. Investigators found later, but before regular meetings take place again, should not attend, to assure that groups remain steady and manageable in size. Missionaries should minister to them and administer the sacrament to them only if deemed appropriate by the bishop or branch president.
+ No classes - they encourage close contact and speaking, which increases the chances of transmission of the virus. Also no in-person interviews, meetings, etc.
+ In general, meeting length should be kept to a minimum and should ideally focus on the actual ordinance of the sacrament. Somewhere in the vicinity of a 30 to 45-minute service seems reasonable.
I just noticed from the analysis above that we are close to 100 Temples in the US alone (93 as of 2019). If we include the ones announced so far this year, then we're at 96. If we include the previous announced or built of the early Restoration, then we're right around 100. I wonder if 4 will be announced this October to round out the current number to 100? That would be a nice touch for this bicentennial year.
I hope they make a big deal out of the dedication (and maybe hold a cultural celebration) for whichever temple happens to be dedicated as #100 for the US; also for whichever happens to be dedicated as #200 for the world total.
It's interesting how Canada lost membership from 1914 to 1920, but I believe the Cardston Temple was being built. The numbers of 9 to 10 k Saints might be similar to what a small temple has had in places like Monticello or Snowflake, Gila Valley or even Anchorage. Surely Winnipeg will surely have less when it is built.
Also, Canada is about to surpass 200k. That is good. Maybe 5 U.S. states have that many. Possibly 6 with Oregon? I know Canada is a huge country, just for perspective.
Nice to see new access in places like Woodstock, either New Brunswick or Nova Scotia. I guess between Maine and N.B., the former would be a better candidate for a new temple. One in Maine would help a few members in Canada.
In Canada, there are actually so much diversity of different ethnic immigrant communities and languages, especially in the larger cities, that having one English ward to cover the area is not enough. While there are a few Spanish, Mandarin, Korean branches or wards in Canada, there is so more potential if more targeted language groups or branches were created to better reach the overall population. For example, over 2% speak Punjabi (Eastern Pakistan, NW India), other languages include Tagalog, Cantonese, Italian, Arabic, etc.
I think we need to stop default identifying the language of units. My French missionary companion always said in the long run in the YS we needed to learn how to have multi-lingual populations all in one ward.
Canada has less residents than California. Significantly fewer members but more temples.
The no new investigators rule will never fly. President Nelson indicated guidance will be out soon.
The one Maine could be in Portland, Augusta, or Bangor. But I wonder if there would be 2 temples sharing the same city name as we have the Portland Oregon Temple.
I think it's not a great situation, but given government guidance at least in Germany (but probably elsewhere in countries that have gotten the outbreak more or less under control), this is what might need to happen. Tracking people and infections (which continues to be the highest priority from the government side) becomes exponentially harder if visitors walk into Church meetings. With members, we have addresses and phone numbers and ministering brothers and sisters who can be informed if anyone has developed symptoms, but with investigators, you may not have any of that.
I continue to believe that the minimum operating standard, and the first priority at reopening, should be that Church members are able to renew covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
In my stake in Utah, we are now allowed to have the sacrament in small groups again.
I don't think church meetings will be fully back to normal until at least fall, if the cancellation of every pageant, trek, camp, and FSY this summer is any indication.
They should hold a music festival in Woodstock, just to celebrate. ;P
@Bryansb1984
We have a Columbia River, and a Columbia South Carolina, and a Columbus Ohio, and a British Columbia Temple, so who who knows?
Plus Bogota Columbia and Barranquilla Columbia.
@OC Surfer and JPL
My Canadian companion back on the mission (from Toronto) told me they had discontinued all the Spanish Wards up in Canada around the year 2,000, in order to integrate better with the English Wards. Does anyone here know any more about that?
L. Chris Jones, the South American nation is spelled with two "o"s, so it's Colombia in that case rather than Columbia, and the conversation above, unless I am mistaken, was talking about temples that had similar elements in the name of the city.
@Johnathan Reese Whiting
According to https://maps.lds.org GTA (Greater Toronto Area) has 3 Spanish Wards, 1 Mandarin Ward, 1 Cantonese Ward. Montreal also has a Spanish Ward in their French Stake. London, Ontario has a Spanish Branch. Vancouver BC also has 2 Spanish Wards, 2 Mandarin Wards, and Korean Branch. Calgary has 2 Spanish Wards (and a Tagalog Ward). Edmonton also has a Spanish Ward.
So there are making some inroads, but the perception in Canada and in other parts of the world, that the Church is "White and American Church", makes it difficult culturally to reach out to different ethnic and immigrant groups in Canada. While there may not a critical mass for a branch or ward for additional languages at the moment, at least English Wards should be open to have different language Sunday School Classes, Come Follow Me Groups, Cottage Meetings, FHEs, etc as needed.
@L. Chris Jones
I'd forgotten about the ones in the country of Colombia. Good catch. :)
@OC Surfer
Perhaps they will try to make some member groups for foreign speakers like they're implementing for Spanish-speakers in the western US?
I do wonder if someday the Church will publish more member group info, perhaps not the actual addresses or phone numbers (those could be gained by those in the area who want to meet with the group, by contacting the local missionaries or leaders), but maybe the existence and name of the group as advertising to members who've just moved into the area, or investigators who'd like to attend. Just so people know the Church still exists in that area, even though there's no branch or ward. It might also help those groups grow into branches or wards more quickly.
Another idea would be to make sure the group has a Facebook page or some other type of social media platform for contact purposes. Thoughts?
Montreal had two Spanish wards, the Zarahemla and Monte Rey wards, when I served there as a Spanish-speaking missionary from 1995-1997 (along with two areas in Ottawa, one of them an English-speaking one), and I heard that another had been created on what is known as the South Shore after I left, probably at the existing meetinghouse in Greenfield Park (or possibly Lemoyne, now part of Longueuil). My last area included all of the south shore, and I taught English classes at that building, though our Spanish-speaking members and investigators went into the city to the Monte Rey ward. What is the name of the remaining ward?
I've answered my own question using the Meetinghouse Locator. It appears there are two YSA branches, one of them French-speaking, meeting in the Rue Gilford building, a narrow 4-story former police station (less than a block from a metro stop), that the Monte Rey ward met in while I was there.
I had the location slightly off on the new Spanish-speaking ward- the Victoria ward meets in a new building right next to the Montreal temple, and appears to be still active (apart from COVID-19, that is).
The Zarahemla ward is still operational and meets alongside a French ward in the stake center.
Both Zarahemla and Monte Rey were large wards, and I didn't think a huge number of the members in the latter were from the area now covered by the Victoria ward. So I am surprised by the closing of Monte Rey. I wonder if a lot of the members ended up leaving for legal or economic reasons- the adults were mostly first-generation immigrants.
One other thing I found interesting from the Meetinghouse Locator:
The Greenfield Park building I mentioned now has a French-speaking ward in addition to the English-speaking one, and both say they start at 9 with sacrament meeting first. I don't remember there being two chapels, but I actually didn't spend much time there apart from the English classes we taught.
Sorry about my spelling. I was just adding my thoughts on similar names. It's just spelled different due to the language difference. Also the Vancouver BC temple was also mentioned. I hope for a second temple in BC such as Victoria island someday.
No worries there, Chris. As far as a second temple in British Colombia, based on a tip from someone actually living in and familiar with that region, a temple in Victoria appears likely sooner rather than later. I am hoping that will be one of the next (if not very next) Canadian cities to get a temple.
Sorry. Now I've done it too. The Candian province and South Carolinian temple city are both "Columbia", as is Washington D.C. (District of Columbia), all with a "u" while the South American nation is "Colombia", with two "o"s being the intereting anomaly and the odd-one-out. Reminds me of how, while working with the Church's extraction program (the precursor to what we now know as indexing), in the records I did, which all came from the Philippines, it took me a while to remind myself that there is one "l" and two "p"s in the name of that group of islands, not two "l"s and one "p". Geograpical locations can sure be interesting sometimes, can't they?
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