There has been a French speaking branch organized in Phoenix. This is only the second French speaking units in the US. There are also maybe 5 French creole language units.
The other French unit is in the Maryland suburbs of DC and mainly has members from Congo and various West African countries. I know nothing about the Phoenix French-speaking branch's ethnic make up but do wonder if it might have many Quebecois retires, but have no idea at all.
The new policy on witnesses is a very big deal, but like having women give prayers in general sessions of general conference some of the hype will probably seem to overemphasize the role of witnesses.
In the prayer case the rhetoric of "leading in prayer" clearly was not built around the ways prayers are done in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This becomes obvious when you have experienced Protestant especially Afeican-American Protestant prayers where prayers come with an opening mini sermon.
Prayers in the tradition of The Church of Jesus Xhemrist of Latter-day Saints are just the address to God. Likewise unlike the talks in general conference they are not recorded and due to the talk by talk videos being the most common way to watch conference after the fact are rarely watched.
Women giving talks in general conference is a bigger deal than them praying and that has been happening longer.
With the witnessing for temple baptisms this us a continuation of the final Monsonian reform of allowing priests to baptize in the temple.
The fact that 8 year olds can now be witnesses to baptism, or a husband and wife could witness their daughters baptism if all three are baptized the same day is a big part of this change.
It refocuses the role of families. It also has that same role for live sealings. When I got married my father was one witness and my branch President the other since my father-in-law is incarcerated.
Next, I hope, women will be allowed to serve as clerks and in Sunday school presidencies, and hold their babies during baby blessings. There is the same amount of scriptural and doctrinal justification for these current restrictions as there was for not letting them be witnesses - zero.
There are probably also French-speaking members in the area of Madawaska, Maine who attend the branch in Edmundston, New Brunswick. Some of the people in the Saint John River valley are undoubtedly bilingual. (The only member I knew in the Fort Kent area was a woman who went to Bulgaria as one of the first missionaries there. She taught English and enlisted my brother and me to be penpals for a couple of her students.) However, when my family lived there we encountered a good deal of local vs. outsider snobbery- I think that language and religion both played a part in it. My dad had to travel out of the valley to find work, partly because the local economy there was not good- this was in the early-to-mid 80's. But he had tried to get a job with the school district, and someone was afraid he would try to proselytize the kids to his non-Catholic faith (He was a returned missionary.)
Restrictions do not need to have scriptural basis since the gospel is transmitted through direct revelations and not all revelations are written.
On my mission I knew a lady who was bitter about her husband having ran off with a women who was assigned as an assistant to the wayward clerk when he was ward clerk. Introducing female ward clerks would have to be done with balance and deliberation.
Evidently most members of the Frwnch speaking branch in Arizona are from "Francophone sub-saharan Africa".
Two questions come to mind. Did most members convert before or after immigration? Most likely a mix.
Also I would not be surprised if that branch began as a group.
I don't know how much such plays put in the US but I know in the English stake in Japan to call the members immigrants is misleading. They tend more to be short term expatriates with no intention of permanent relocation. On the other hand in the US some Spanish-speaking units will have people whose families have been in the US for generations. Although sometimes this depends on weather 5hey are viewed as only for those non-fluent in English or as for all who have Spanish as their native language or more ethnic than linguistic in character.
I see all three views, but have to say that I cant embrace the notion of units for ethnic as opposed to linguistic uniqueness. On the other hand being able to functionally communicate in English in society and understanding it enough to learn the gospel when taught in that language are two separate issues.
There are cases that I know of when women were asked and held the calling of ward clerk in the past when there was literally no one else that could do it.
The future of the Church in Africa is really bright. Not bad for a faith characterized by some as historically racist. I was discussing with my son how Brigham Young was a segregationalist, not a slave owner, oppressor of minorities like some Americans and Latin Americans in their day. The time is now for all to embrace the priesthood, all will be restored at last.
I was reading a book on the Church in Canada that suggested outside of Quebec Church membership is much less Framcophone than in the general population. This may be so but since the Church does not trace native language per se, the proxy of congregational language elides the truth. In my branch we have one member whose native language is Swedish and another whose maybe either Cebuano or Tagolog and one sister whose native language is Spanish. Sterling Heights ward at times had not just Spanish and Portugese but German, Dutch, Fijian, Cantonese, Korean, Tagalog, Vanuatan and Basque. Albanian, Chaldean and Swazi. So there are probably more Francophone Canadian members outside Quebec than are easily trackable.
I know that the Community of Christ Church has been selling much of its property to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the last few years. But I heard they have said that they no interest in selling the Kirtland Temple. Who knows they may change their minds. They have sold or divested themselves of original Book of Mormon Printers manuscripts and historical sites such as Haun's Mill as well as farmland.
Independence Missouri or Far West Temples may be huge announcements. However the Kansas City Temple is in the same area and I think the number of members is not large enough for a second or third temple there. The Independence main lot is also owned by an offshoot. The greater lot is owned by our church as well as two others.
I think it is better for the temples to go where the members are than where they are not. Kirtland would work for the Cleveland area, Akron, Youngstown. Pittsburgh needs its own, too. Independence, maybe, but Far West is too isolated from people. Temples are necessary in hundreds of parts of the world where thousands of members live, more than 50-200 miles from other temples. We are nigh on General Conference!
Agreed with L Chris Jones and Eduardo. Also, the Community of Christ knows thre is a lot of interest in the Kirkland Temple and it brings many people there. They give tours and many visit their visitor center and store, which I am sure helps their church monetarily. So, that may be one reason they have no interest in selling.
Brazil temples. Based on President Nelson's final talk before leaving Brazil a couple of weeks ago, I expect more than 20 temples to be announced today, including up to 4 in Brazil. Brazil, is almost as large as the United States. I would expect a mix of sizes in temples there in both large unserved cities and smaller ones that have concentrations of stakes: Belo Horizonte (large), Cuiaba (distant), Santos or Sao Vicente (concentration on the coast south of Sao Paulo), Sao Paulo Guarulhos, Ribeirao Preto, Londrina, Santa Maria, Florianopolis.
Mexico Temples. I think there may be a couple of additional temples in Mexico, such as Queretero, Pachuca, San Luis Potosi, Aquascalientes,Torreon, Reynosa, or the east side of Mexico City near the area office.
Africa continues to be a area of growith and very high need for temples: Bo or Freetown Sierra Leone, Monrovia Liberia, Benin City Nigeria and Antananarivo Madagascar seem like good prospects to be announced for the next year or two. Good prospects for the Pacific are Port Moresby Papua New Guinea and Tarawa Kiribati. Other places would not surprise me. In Asia, Jakarta Indonesia and Ulaanbaatar Mongolia are on my list. In Europe, Scotland has a cluster of stakes that are over two ours from Preston England.
I'm always surprised by new temples for the U.S. In Utah, Park City or Heber City would be a good "twin" to Tooele Valley. Texas still has huge distances. Austin has a good concentration of stakes. Brownsville is far away and is also on my list. It's time for conference so by tomorrow afternoon we'll know.
It is wonderful to see that they announce new temples or that those on the waiting list are built soon. I would like very much if there were more temples in my country Chile and in other parts of the world, so being closer it is assumed that the baptized faithful will be able to attend more often.
I really liked Elder Renlund's talk. The story of early converts to the Church in Congo, especially the Bonza family and the sacrifices they made was truly moving.
It was all the more touching to hear these faithful members lived to see their home city blessed by a temple and were even at the conference center today.
The Church has just organized a branch in Muanda, Democratic Republic of the Congo. This city of 50,000 lies on the Atlantic Coast near the mouth of the Congo River. I think this brings to 4 the number of branches in the DR Congo west of Kinshasa.
Well, the effects 9f stagnant membership and a theology that moves away from a belief in the Book of Mormon among other things, no statement by the Community of Christ would be to me strong enough to preclude future changes. Currently I find a Harmony, Pennsylvania Temple more likely than the revision of the original Kirtland Temple into an operating modern temple.
Perhaps. I was released as EQ Pres when my ward was discontinued. Apparently, the Lord has a unique way to release me when I am the president of an organization! ;) So, if I ever am another President of an organization, perhaps expect a change. :)
I was wondering what Butterfky and Bones asked. My guess is no, but what do I know. This is the 1st announcement of temples to the general women's meeting.
We see NW Arkansas and Freetown. I was hoping for Benin City too. Orem and Taylorsville. I love Taylorsville being announced. Bacolob, Coban. Of Port Moresby.
The film Freetown can now be watched with new meaning.
Since Harmony is far east Pennsylvania, a temple there would have no effect on Pitrsburgh. Pittsburgh is closer to the DC temple than it is to Harmony Pennsylvania. Harmony would postpone a Scanton Temple but have no effect on a Pittsburgh one, at least from a need persoective.
There are 16 dedicated temples in Utah, 6 now announced. 22 total. Jordan River was the 2oth dedicated temple overall, 7th in Utah, and 2nd in Salt Lake County.
No, JPL is right- Cedar City was the 17th temple dedicated in Utah.
Anonymous- on this one you can't go by Google Maps. The place called Harmony in church history is now called Oakland Township and is near the north-eastern corner of PA, in Susquehanna county.
If you check that online, you may need to leave out the word Township, apparently there are two of them. But Pittsburgh PA to Oakland PA is close- the Oakland township in question is right next to a town called Oakland. Entering this info on one site gives a distance of 251.13 air miles and 335 miles by road.
Another was to find the right place for Harmony, PA is to search Priesthood Restoration Site. That came up on Google Maps just fine for me. Again thx for catching that!
In 1853, the western part of Harmony Township, Susquehanna County, PA, (the part west of the Susquehanna River) was split off to form Oakland Township, Susquehanna County, PA. In 1883, the Borough of Oakland split off from Oakland Township.
Thus, what was Harmony Township, Susquehanna County, in the 1820s and 1830s is now three local governments. The Priesthood Restoration Site in inside Oakland Township, Susquehanna County.
The townships are what the Census Bureau calls a "minor civil division" which is common in the northeastern states--the non-incorporated areas of a county are subdivided into these minor civil divisions, which in Pennsylvania are called townships.
That is not the Harmony that President Nelson was speaking of. The Harminy he was speaking of is Harmony Township in Susquehannah County, not Harmony in Butler County.
JPL, if you reread the official letter and attached FAQ, the wording notes that the callings related to the ward Young Men Presidency "have been" discontinued. Not "will be", "have been". That to me definitively indicates that those releases are immediate. It appears that bishops may be given until the end of the year to implement these changes if needed, but the released information also notes that action to implement these changes should be taken as quickly as is reasonably possible. Unless I missed something, that is what the released material indicated.
74 comments:
Woman and children who are baptized can now serve as witness at baptisms. Women can witness for dealings
I mean sealings.
Argentina and Chile have a lot of good members but many, many fallen away. Descarriados.
There has been a French speaking branch organized in Phoenix. This is only the second French speaking units in the US. There are also maybe 5 French creole language units.
The other French unit is in the Maryland suburbs of DC and mainly has members from Congo and various West African countries. I know nothing about the Phoenix French-speaking branch's ethnic make up but do wonder if it might have many Quebecois retires, but have no idea at all.
Vermont just had a YSA branch organized.
The new policy on witnesses is a very big deal, but like having women give prayers in general sessions of general conference some of the hype will probably seem to overemphasize the role of witnesses.
In the prayer case the rhetoric of "leading in prayer" clearly was not built around the ways prayers are done in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This becomes obvious when you have experienced Protestant especially Afeican-American Protestant prayers where prayers come with an opening mini sermon.
Prayers in the tradition of The Church of Jesus Xhemrist of Latter-day Saints are just the address to God. Likewise unlike the talks in general conference they are not recorded and due to the talk by talk videos being the most common way to watch conference after the fact are rarely watched.
Women giving talks in general conference is a bigger deal than them praying and that has been happening longer.
With the witnessing for temple baptisms this us a continuation of the final Monsonian reform of allowing priests to baptize in the temple.
The fact that 8 year olds can now be witnesses to baptism, or a husband and wife could witness their daughters baptism if all three are baptized the same day is a big part of this change.
It refocuses the role of families. It also has that same role for live sealings. When I got married my father was one witness and my branch President the other since my father-in-law is incarcerated.
Next, I hope, women will be allowed to serve as clerks and in Sunday school presidencies, and hold their babies during baby blessings. There is the same amount of scriptural and doctrinal justification for these current restrictions as there was for not letting them be witnesses - zero.
I suspect the branch in Fort Kent, Maine is at least partially French-speaking, even if it is not officially listed that way.
There are probably also French-speaking members in the area of Madawaska, Maine who attend the branch in Edmundston, New Brunswick. Some of the people in the Saint John River valley are undoubtedly bilingual. (The only member I knew in the Fort Kent area was a woman who went to Bulgaria as one of the first missionaries there. She taught English and enlisted my brother and me to be penpals for a couple of her students.) However, when my family lived there we encountered a good deal of local vs. outsider snobbery- I think that language and religion both played a part in it. My dad had to travel out of the valley to find work, partly because the local economy there was not good- this was in the early-to-mid 80's. But he had tried to get a job with the school district, and someone was afraid he would try to proselytize the kids to his non-Catholic faith (He was a returned missionary.)
My last couple "theres" are referring again to the Saint John valley of Maine.
Restrictions do not need to have scriptural basis since the gospel is transmitted through direct revelations and not all revelations are written.
On my mission I knew a lady who was bitter about her husband having ran off with a women who was assigned as an assistant to the wayward clerk when he was ward clerk. Introducing female ward clerks would have to be done with balance and deliberation.
Evidently most members of the Frwnch speaking branch in Arizona are from "Francophone sub-saharan Africa".
Two questions come to mind. Did most members convert before or after immigration? Most likely a mix.
Also I would not be surprised if that branch began as a group.
I don't know how much such plays put in the US but I know in the English stake in Japan to call the members immigrants is misleading. They tend more to be short term expatriates with no intention of permanent relocation. On the other hand in the US some Spanish-speaking units will have people whose families have been in the US for generations. Although sometimes this depends on weather 5hey are viewed as only for those non-fluent in English or as for all who have Spanish as their native language or more ethnic than linguistic in character.
I see all three views, but have to say that I cant embrace the notion of units for ethnic as opposed to linguistic uniqueness. On the other hand being able to functionally communicate in English in society and understanding it enough to learn the gospel when taught in that language are two separate issues.
There are cases that I know of when women were asked and held the calling of ward clerk in the past when there was literally no one else that could do it.
The future of the Church in Africa is really bright. Not bad for a faith characterized by some as historically racist.
I was discussing with my son how Brigham Young was a segregationalist, not a slave owner, oppressor of minorities like some Americans and Latin Americans in their day. The time is now for all to embrace the priesthood, all will be restored at last.
I was reading a book on the Church in Canada that suggested outside of Quebec Church membership is much less Framcophone than in the general population. This may be so but since the Church does not trace native language per se, the proxy of congregational language elides the truth. In my branch we have one member whose native language is Swedish and another whose maybe either Cebuano or Tagolog and one sister whose native language is Spanish. Sterling Heights ward at times had not just Spanish and Portugese but German, Dutch, Fijian, Cantonese, Korean, Tagalog, Vanuatan and Basque. Albanian, Chaldean and Swazi. So there are probably more Francophone Canadian members outside Quebec than are easily trackable.
What if the big and temple announcement is a big temple announcement, i.e. Kirtland, Ohio temple will be restored?? Ideas/Thoughts?
I know that the Community of Christ Church has been selling much of its property to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the last few years. But I heard they have said that they no interest in selling the Kirtland Temple. Who knows they may change their minds. They have sold or divested themselves of original Book of Mormon Printers manuscripts and historical sites such as Haun's Mill as well as farmland.
Independence Missouri or Far West Temples may be huge announcements. However the Kansas City Temple is in the same area and I think the number of members is not large enough for a second or third temple there. The Independence main lot is also owned by an offshoot. The greater lot is owned by our church as well as two others.
I think it is better for the temples to go where the members are than where they are not. Kirtland would work for the Cleveland area, Akron, Youngstown. Pittsburgh needs its own, too.
Independence, maybe, but Far West is too isolated from people. Temples are necessary in hundreds of parts of the world where thousands of members live, more than 50-200 miles from other temples.
We are nigh on General Conference!
Agreed with L Chris Jones and Eduardo. Also, the Community of Christ knows thre is a lot of interest in the Kirkland Temple and it brings many people there. They give tours and many visit their visitor center and store, which I am sure helps their church monetarily. So, that may be one reason they have no interest in selling.
Brazil temples. Based on President Nelson's final talk before leaving Brazil a couple of weeks ago, I expect more than 20 temples to be announced today, including up to 4 in Brazil. Brazil, is almost as large as the United States. I would expect a mix of sizes in temples there in both large unserved cities and smaller ones that have concentrations of stakes: Belo Horizonte (large), Cuiaba (distant), Santos or Sao Vicente (concentration on the coast south of Sao Paulo), Sao Paulo Guarulhos, Ribeirao Preto, Londrina, Santa Maria, Florianopolis.
Mexico Temples. I think there may be a couple of additional temples in Mexico, such as Queretero, Pachuca, San Luis Potosi, Aquascalientes,Torreon, Reynosa, or the east side of Mexico City near the area office.
Other Latin America Temples I would like to see include Santa Cruz Bolivia, La Paz Bolivia Iquitos Peru, Cali Colombia, and Kingston Jamaica.
Africa continues to be a area of growith and very high need for temples: Bo or Freetown Sierra Leone, Monrovia Liberia, Benin City Nigeria and Antananarivo Madagascar seem like good prospects to be announced for the next year or two. Good prospects for the Pacific are Port Moresby Papua New Guinea and Tarawa Kiribati. Other places would not surprise me. In Asia, Jakarta Indonesia and Ulaanbaatar Mongolia are on my list. In Europe, Scotland has a cluster of stakes that are over two ours from Preston England.
I'm always surprised by new temples for the U.S. In Utah, Park City or Heber City would be a good "twin" to Tooele Valley. Texas still has huge distances. Austin has a good concentration of stakes. Brownsville is far away and is also on my list. It's time for conference so by tomorrow afternoon we'll know.
It is wonderful to see that they announce new temples or that those on the waiting list are built soon.
I would like very much if there were more temples in my country Chile and in other parts of the world, so being closer it is assumed that the baptized faithful will be able to attend more often.
I really liked Elder Renlund's talk. The story of early converts to the Church in Congo, especially the Bonza family and the sacrifices they made was truly moving.
It was all the more touching to hear these faithful members lived to see their home city blessed by a temple and were even at the conference center today.
The Church has just organized a branch in Muanda, Democratic Republic of the Congo. This city of 50,000 lies on the Atlantic Coast near the mouth of the Congo River. I think this brings to 4 the number of branches in the DR Congo west of Kinshasa.
Well, the effects 9f stagnant membership and a theology that moves away from a belief in the Book of Mormon among other things, no statement by the Community of Christ would be to me strong enough to preclude future changes. Currently I find a Harmony, Pennsylvania Temple more likely than the revision of the original Kirtland Temple into an operating modern temple.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/october-2019-general-conference-youth-organizations
I guess I will need a new calling.
I was released as a high priest group assistant by President Nelson in... 2018. You might get called as a youth counselor, right?
Perhaps. I was released as EQ Pres when my ward was discontinued. Apparently, the Lord has a unique way to release me when I am the president of an organization! ;) So, if I ever am another President of an organization, perhaps expect a change. :)
President Nelson said he was recently in Harmony, Pennsylvania. Well there be a temple announced there?
That could be the place rather than Pittsburgh.
President Nelson just said that more temples are coming in the Women's session of conference.
8 Temples just announced!
New Temples in:
Freetown
Orem
Port Moresby
Benton Hill, Arkansas
Philippine
McAllen
Guatemala
Taylorsville
Freetown, SL, Orem, UT, Port Moresby, Bentonville, AR, McAllen, TX, Coban Guat, Taylorsville, UT
Coban, Guatemala!
I heard Benton Hill and was going to look it up. Bentonville makes more since.
Do you think he will announce more temples tomorrow too? 😆
O ye of little faith, I told you Orem was a great candidate...
One thing about President Nelson. He keeps us guessing.
I was wondering what Butterfky and Bones asked. My guess is no, but what do I know. This is the 1st announcement of temples to the general women's meeting.
We see NW Arkansas and Freetown. I was hoping for Benin City too. Orem and Taylorsville. I love Taylorsville being announced. Bacolob, Coban. Of Port Moresby.
The film Freetown can now be watched with new meaning.
Half these are in US. I think this is the most US temples announced at once by President Nelson. Where in Orem will the temple go.
No immediate releases. Anyway they will still have adult advisors to the Young men.
Since Harmony is far east Pennsylvania, a temple there would have no effect on Pitrsburgh. Pittsburgh is closer to the DC temple than it is to Harmony Pennsylvania. Harmony would postpone a Scanton Temple but have no effect on a Pittsburgh one, at least from a need persoective.
Coban is that in the Maya belt?
I am sad that Monrovia didn't have a temple announced too. Does this put Utav to 23 temple. Jordan River Temple was temple #20.
Is there space close to Utah Valley U. for a temple? Is Lindon too close to Mt. Timpanogous Temple?
Yes
Vineyard area for Orem temple?
@Butterfly and Bones
I was hoping he'd announce more tomorrow, too!
None in Brazil.
But, I feel more are coming tomorrow.
Yeah, that's what makes me think more are coming tomorrow too!!!
I've been thinking of Harmony for awhile too!
There are 16 dedicated temples in Utah, 6 now announced. 22 total. Jordan River was the 2oth dedicated temple overall, 7th in Utah, and 2nd in Salt Lake County.
JPL, Pittsburgh is 30 miles from Harmony, PA according to Google Maps.
No, JPL is right- Cedar City was the 17th temple dedicated in Utah.
Anonymous- on this one you can't go by Google Maps. The place called Harmony in church history is now called Oakland Township and is near the north-eastern corner of PA, in Susquehanna county.
If you check that online, you may need to leave out the word Township, apparently there are two of them. But Pittsburgh PA to Oakland PA is close- the Oakland township in question is right next to a town called Oakland. Entering this info on one site gives a distance of 251.13 air miles and 335 miles by road.
To confuse things further, there is also a neighborhood in Pittsburgh called Oakland.
According to Wikipedia there are 3 Oakland Townships in Pennsylvania.
Thanks for the corrections.
Sorry, 23 in Utah is correct. Somehow in my count I missed one. So, 17 dedicated and 6 announced. Amazing to have 6 announced in Utah alone!
Thanks for the clarification. I was unaware of these things, @twinnumerouno!
Another was to find the right place for Harmony, PA is to search Priesthood Restoration Site. That came up on Google Maps just fine for me. Again thx for catching that!
In 1853, the western part of Harmony Township, Susquehanna County, PA, (the part west of the Susquehanna River) was split off to form Oakland Township, Susquehanna County, PA. In 1883, the Borough of Oakland split off from Oakland Township.
Thus, what was Harmony Township, Susquehanna County, in the 1820s and 1830s is now three local governments. The Priesthood Restoration Site in inside Oakland Township, Susquehanna County.
The townships are what the Census Bureau calls a "minor civil division" which is common in the northeastern states--the non-incorporated areas of a county are subdivided into these minor civil divisions, which in Pennsylvania are called townships.
The borough is an incorporated municipality.
That is not the Harmony that President Nelson was speaking of. The Harminy he was speaking of is Harmony Township in Susquehannah County, not Harmony in Butler County.
In Michigan we make it even more fun by having charter townships which are thus half incorporated.
In Nww York and New England and maybe Wisconsin they call what some other states call townships towns.
JPL, if you reread the official letter and attached FAQ, the wording notes that the callings related to the ward Young Men Presidency "have been" discontinued. Not "will be", "have been". That to me definitively indicates that those releases are immediate. It appears that bishops may be given until the end of the year to implement these changes if needed, but the released information also notes that action to implement these changes should be taken as quickly as is reasonably possible. Unless I missed something, that is what the released material indicated.
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