Brazil
The Church organized a new stake in Brazil in Rio Grande do Sul. The Gramado Brazil Stake was organized on July 23rd from the Gramado Brazil District (created in 2005). The new stake includes the following five wards and one branch: the Canela 1st, Canela 2nd, Gramado 1st, Gramado 2nd, and Taquara Wards and the Nova Petrópolis Branch. The new stake is the Church's fourth new stake to be created in southern Brazil in the past few months.
There are now 285 stakes and 39 districts in Brazil
Texas
The Church organized a new stake in the Texas Panhandle. The Amarillo Texas East Stake was created on August 13th from a division of the Amarillo Texas Stake (organized in 1981). The new stake includes the following five wards and three branches: the Bishop Hills, Borger, Childress, Pampa, and Tascosa Wards, and the Estacado (Spanish), Dumas, and Perryton Branches. There are now four stakes in the Texas Panhandle - the other two of which are located in Lubbock (organized in 1967 and 2014).
There are now 79 stakes and 2 districts in Texas.
Hong Kong
The Church discontinued two stakes in Hong Kong. The Hong Kong China Kowloon East Stake (created in 1980, discontinued in 2006, reinstated in 2016) and Hong Kong China Lion Rock (organized in 2016) were discontinued and consolidated with neighboring stakes. Nine wards were discontinued as part of the reorganization. Now, there are four stakes and one district in Hong Kong - the same number of stakes and districts that operated from 2006-2015. There are now 21 wards in Hong Kong - the fewest number of wards in Hong Kong since prior to 1987. Church membership has been in decline in Hong Kong since 2020. It is unclear how much of this decline (the Church has historically experienced slow membership growth or stagnant membership growth during the past couple decades in Hong Kong) is attributed to tightening political freedoms in this special administrative region of China during the past few years. However, there was a major emphasis by the Asia Area Presidency in the mid-2010s to create smaller wards which resulted in the reinstatement of a previously closed stake and the creation of a sixth stake in 2016. Click here to access membership and congregational data in Hong Kong. Member activity rates in Hong Kong have numbered among the lowest in the world, with 12-14% of membership regularly attending church in the late 2010s.
I was just thinking with the long post Groundbreaking delay on construction of the Heber Valley Temple, some of which may be about lugging issues, I am thinking I am understanding why building temples in rural atlreas is rare. The issues with building large buildings in rural areas are complex.
ReplyDeleteAlthough maybe large is not the factor. The Cody Wyoming Temple will be under 10,000 square feet, smaller than most of the "small" temples built under President Hinckley, though not as small as Monticello, Anchorage and Colonia Juarez were when first built. Yet at that size people are still fighting it tooth and nail.
I quite encourage by Church growth in Brazil. I am very hopefully than Florianopolis or somewhere near by and Soracaba both have temples announced this fall. A temple for the interior of Rio Grande do Sul state would also be wonderful.
Texas may have another temple announced, but Amarillo does not seem likely. El Paso seems the most likely, although Houston 2 or either Longview/Gilmer or Beaumont are also vague possibilities. Somewhere like Midland Texas may be a candidate as well.
I wonder how much severe and long lasting Covid restriction in Hong Kong disrupted things. I seem to recall in late 2021/early 2022 they were doing drastic things there to stop Covid. I wonder if that overall disrupted Church growth in that place.
I may be wrong, but looks like this weeks temple announcement is looking at photos of the soon to be dedicated McAllen Texas Temple.
ReplyDelete"See photos of the McAllen Texas Temple as public tours begin"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2023/8/21/23839692/see-interior-exterior-photos-of-mcallen-texas-temple-as-it-begins-open-house
Hopefully there is more later in the day.
Hey, Chris! Obviously, nothing new was announced today. One week from today, VIP/Media tours will begin for the Bangkok Thailand Temple, so it's likely that will be all we get temple-wise next week. But after covering that next week, there won't be any other VIP/Media tours starting on Monday until Orem's on Monday October 22.
DeleteSo I see two possible scenarios: either no other major temple construction announcements will be shared until September 4, or, if anything else is announced this week and/or next week, the major update could be shared on Tuesday.
As a side note, the Church Temples site indicated today that major construction has concluded on the Puebla Mexico Temple. Based on what I've heard from my network of Church contacts, the Church might hold off on announcing the opening arrangements for the Red Cliffs Utah Temple until more is known in relation to Elder Holland's health and prognosis.
It also appears that the Church could set the dedication of the Puebla Mexico Temple before setting both Red Cliffs and Layton, and that Puebla will also be the first of the three to be dedicated. Hope this information is helpful to you.
James, Thank you for all your hard work and researching ongoing current events. I do appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteI also want to add my thanks James. You are an incredibly positive and uplifting force on this blog.
DeleteThank you both for your kind words. For as long as I can remember, I have loved tracking the latest updates about the Church, and I've been blessed with a gift to know where to find and how to retain such information. In recent years, when my health has prevented me from working full-time, I have found increased satisfaction from the research I do, and even moreso from being able to pass such information along here and on my blog. And I've thereby been able to connect with a variety of contacts worldwide who keep me informed of the latest in their areas. Their efforts, along with my ability to find and retain that information, have been a major source of personal satisfaction for me. I likewise appreciate the contributions both of you make to the discussions here.
DeleteYou're the man, James Stokes! :)
DeleteSometimes they announce temple announcements on Tuesday. We will see. Whether the McAllen photos count, I don't know, but they at times do other such announcements along with the start of temple open houses.
ReplyDeleteI am quite impressed with the new McAllen Temple. The first branch in the Rio Grande Valley was organized in 1921. It was Spanish-speaking.
On another note, somehow I have it in my head that Elder Dushku is of Albanian descent. If this is true, he may be the first general authority of Albanian descent.
This is the second time under President Nelson a general authority wascalled at an irregular time.
With Elder Gerard being put in I think the Africa West Area Presidency, do we have a new head of public relations for the Church. I have not seen anything about that, although in the past that has tended to be so.ething we learn incidentally. I have a guess as to who the new head will be, but I do not know yet.
Are we almost to temple prediction time.
I am going out on a limit and making predictions now. Sorry if this is too soon.
I think we will give a list now.
1. Bucaramanga, Colombia
2. Savannah, Georgia
3. Appleton, Wisconsin
4. Lehi, Utah
5. Florianapolis, Brazil
6. Soracaba, Brazil
7. Abuja, Nigeria
8. Kampala, Uganda
9. Honolulu, Hawai'i
10. Cape Coast, Ghana
11. Mbuje-Mayi, DR Congo (I may have misspelled this)
12. Rosario, Argentina
13. Cancun, Mexico
14. Chihuahua, Mexico
15. El Paso, Texas
16. Bordeaux, France
17. Nagoya, Japan
18. Guatemala City 3rd temple
19. Lima 3rd temple
20. Manilla 3td temple
21. Sao Paulo 3rd temple
Other candidates
22. Spanish Fork, Utah
23. Harriman, Utah
24. Des Moines, Iowa
25. Manchester, New Hampshire
26. Preston, Idaho
27. Midland, Texas
28. Beaumont, Texas
29. Colorado Springs, Colorado
30. Flagstaff, Arizona
31. Queen Creek, Arizona
32. Tuba City, Arizona
33. North Ogden, Utah
34. Morgan, Utah
35. Fillmore, Utah
36. Richfield, Utah
37. Price, Utah
38. Baltimore, Maryland
39. Yamasoukro, Ivory Coast
40. Tome, Togo
41. Port Harcourt, Nigeria
42. Enugu, Nigeria
43. Cuiaba, Brazil
44. Piara, Peru
45. Lima #4
46. Lima #5
47. Matatenango, Guatemala
48. Maputo, Mozambique
49. Port Elizabeth, South Africa
50. Glasgow, Scotland
51. Goteborg, Sweden
52. Tirana, Albania
53. Milan, Italy
54. London City Center (Hyde Park chaple?)
55. Temple, Arizona (built on top of institute building)
56. San Luis Valley, Colorado
57. Farmington, Utah
58. Cincinatti, Ohio
59. Fort Wayne, Indiana
60. Champaign, Illinois
61. Chicago City Center
62. Ventura, California
63. Salem, Oregon
Beyond this is just crazy
64. Fairbanks, Alaska
65. Lahaina, Hawai'i
66. Haapai Islans, Tonga
67. Upulou, Samoa (I think that is the big island lacking a temple)
68. Nukualofa or somewhere else a 2nd temple on that island
69. San Fernando Valley, California
70. San Francisco, California
71. Santa Rosa, California
72. Long Beach, California
73. Yuma, Arizona
74. Henderson, Nevada
75. South-west Las Vegas metro area
76. Trenton, New Jersey
77. North-east New Jersey
78. Utica, New York
79. Priesthood restoration site, Pennsylvania/Scanton, Pennsylvania (they are not very close)
More unlikely
80. Toledo, Ohio
81. Midland, Michigan
82. Detroit City center, Michigan
83. Liaga, Philippines, or whatever the exact name of the Northwest corner City is
84. New Delhi, India
85. Kolwezi, DR Congo
86. Kinshasa 2
87. Daloa, Ivory Coast
88. Bo, Sierra Leone
89. Mesquite, Nevada
90. Nephi, Utah
91. Rapid City, South Dakota
92. Joseph Smith birthplace, Vermont
93. Bangor, Maine
94. Prince Georges, British Columbia
95. Barcelona, Venezuela
96. Butawayo, Zimbabwe
97. Calabar, Nigeria
98. Munich, Germany
99. Geneva, Switzerland
100. Hamilton, Ontario
101. Potosi, Bolivia
Just watch, there will be at least one not on the above list. I am thinking we will have 21 announced, and with my luch only 5 of my top 21 will be announced.
Per the following link, McAlken's opening definitely "counts" for this week:
Deletehttps://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/temple-news-house-of-the-lord-2023
The last time we got Tuesday temple announcements were July 25 and June 26. I have hoped for other announcements every week for the last 3 weeks at least, and nothing happened. So while I'd love to see a Tuesday announcement about temple construction, that's only happened once a month, if that.
Not sure on Elder Dushku's ancestry. The Church wouldn't leave the Public Affairs Department unmanned and leaderless, so someone had taken over for Elder Gerard. But the identity of the hat person remains unconfirmed for now.
I think you may have meant "Mbuji-Mayi", "Herriman", "Yuba City", "Yamasoukkro", "Lome", "Mazatenango", "Tempe", "Upolu" and "Scranton".
Unless I am mistaken, I believe Tonga's second temple is currently under construction in Neiafu. Did you mean a third Tongan Temple?
Hope this reply is helpful to you.
He meant a 2nd temple on the same island as Nukuolofa.
DeleteThat makes more sense, Chris. Thanks for catching that. Don't know how I missed it.
DeleteI am hoping if not this week next week we have so.e other temple related announcements besides the start of tours in Bangkok. We shall see.
ReplyDeleteI have been told that e are reinforcing the sound dampening nature of the Layton Temple. It is right by the take off point from Hill Airforce base.
I wonder if another issue with Red Cliffs is wanting to start the open house after the St. George dedication.
Also the Missionary Handbook was recently updated.
ReplyDelete"Missionary handbook updates include clarifications, answers to common questions from missionaries and their leaders"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/members/2023/8/21/23839584/missionary-handbook-latter-day-saints-updates-clarifications-answers-to-common-questions
We're currently getting temple announcements at or close to 35 each year. There have been twelve or so groundbreakings in the last year. The next groundbreaking isn't scheduled until October.
ReplyDeleteUntil groundbreakings catch up, the backlog of announced temples is only going to grow. Either that, or the number of announcements will have to slow considerably.
Clarification: twelve groundbreakings in the last year plus a few days. Next week I'd only be able to say ten groundbreakings in the past year. This doesn't match the rate of announcements every year President Nelson has been announcing new temples.
ReplyDelete2018 7+12=19 total 19
2019 8+8=16 total 35
2020 8+6=14 total 49
2021 20+1+13=34 total 83
2022 17+18=35 total 118
2023 20+? total 138+
We're so use to him announcing several temples each conference that I don't how members will react if he quits or significantly slows down on these announcements.
I was shocked to learn that of the 135+ temples President Nelson has announced, only 5 have been dedicated.
ReplyDeleteThe backlog is huge. I know it takes time to construct temples, but even if every temple under constructed were to be dedicated this year, we'd still be looking at a huge backlog.
There's a difference, though. I don't think President Nelson is surprised, concerned, scared of, or daunted by the backlog. I think he welcomes the challenge of it. He's got the Temple Department, the Temple and Family History Executive Council members, the apostles, and the area presidencies actively working on temple projects worldwide. You don't generally announce 133 temples in 5 years if a "backlog" of 60 or 70 is concerning to you.
ReplyDeleteIt's also worth noting that there are some factors beyond the control of anyone. We recently saw a government-mandated halt to the finalization of the Puebla Mexico Temple. That was due to environmental violations unintentionally committed by the crew working on that temple. For a time, it looked like that could delay the completion of that temple for months or potentially years, or result in the Church having to build that temple from the ground up elsewhere.
We also saw difficult obstacles recently in getting approvals for the Cody Wyoming Temple due to community opposition. That temple just barely got the go-ahead. Neither situation in Cody or Puebla was directly the Church's fault.
With all of that in mind, and given the prophet's emphasis on the importance of temple worship, I don't see such announcements slowing or stopping. Newly-completed temples will open when the time is right, and groundbreakings, exterior renderings, and site locations will continue to be announced as circumstances allow.
But I don't 5himk the current slow pace of such announcements will lead to a hiatus on new temples being announced. I see a definite method to the latest announcements, which I assume will continue. And I think he is setting up 2024 as a huge year for Temple groundbreakings, which will cut the existing backlog. We are entering the summer months in the Southern hemisphere, so I think that might impact how soon we see groundbreakings in South America and Africa. Just my observations, for what they are worth.
Let's not forget that the pandemic and the supply chain issues caused by the Russo-Ukrainian War have affected the speed of the temple construction process.
DeleteI am not concerned by backlogs. Whether the Church announces temples bound to be built or not does not affect the speed of completion.
ReplyDeleteI do not think a backlog is concerning at all. Basically the budget allows to build lots of temples right now. That is ultimately the issue, but delays in some buildings do not have to delay others.
ReplyDeleteIn an interview released back in July President Oaks spoke of 20 temples or so announced twice a year. That is why I am hoping we see over 20 this fall. We will see.
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ReplyDeleteAnother thing to note, and I don't know ow if this is a factor or not, but most temples in the US are moving along, but President Nelson isn't one to only announce temples in the US.
ReplyDeleteTemples in other countries always tend to take more time.
Also, by announcing temples in advance, and then releasing site locations, it stops temples from being announced by governments leaking information as what happened with the Paris France temple.
Announcements also create excitement for the members in that area to spiritual prepare for the coming temple.
As a missionary in an area where the temple was being built, it certainly opened up easy conversations about the church because people hear about and ask questions about the future temple.
A plethora of Temple Announcements can also inspire members in new areas to prepare and hope for a temple in their area.
DeleteThe idea that "if such-and-such other area got one, then maybe we will too!" can be motivational.
John Pack Lambert,
ReplyDeleteYour list of temple predictions is fascinating. I'm curious: how do you come up with them? Can you disclose your method? I make temple predictions too, but mine are almost never right.
I think it would have Bern more obvious if I had said Nakualofa 2. The Haapai Temple would be Tonga's 3rd.
ReplyDeleteI did intend to but Niataputapu as my 102nd totally crazy crazy option. That is the island where Elder Groberg spent a good part of his mission. I might as well suggest a temple in Niue.
I did since think the Marshall Islands and Vina del Mar, Chile also belong in the list. Vina del Mar might be included in the top 21, but I am not sure what to oust.
There are another 5 temples announced by President Nelson that have scheduled completion dates.
I looked through all temple reports. I think there is one that had a ground breaking August of last year but still full scale construction has not begun. I forget which one
Some days I am not at all sure how President Hinckley pulled off the announcing withput specifics 32 more temples in April 1998 to all be done by December 2000. Especially since sites for many if not most were not yet known in April 1998.
My actual record is not all that good. I think I got either 3 or 4 right in my 15 in the spring. When I got 5 right last fall I think it was on a list twice as long.
ReplyDeleteKey factors are stakes that exist. Stake distance from existing temples, and beyond that I do not have much of a methodology. Which is why I bat so low.
New stakes increase the likelihood for an area, but another thing you want to look for is old stakes that are far from a temple.
At first Feather River floored me, but later on it dawned on me Yuba City is close to Gridley and Gridley stake dates to 1935.
Recently a church news article suggested that the temple site is picked out before it is announced.
ReplyDeleteIf that is so it does make one wonder why we have temples that have gone 5 years with no site announced. To be fair I think every time they announce a temple site they give us an idea of the size as well.
I just looked up the temple announced with Urdaneta. There were 5 announced in October 2010. Tijana Mexico and Indianapolis Indiana were dedicated in 2015, Hartford, Connecticut in 2016 and Lisbon, Portugal in 2019. Urdaneta is an outlier, but none of them were completed fast.
I've got my own prediction list though not as long. I'm not posting it right now, but will later when I see the updated temple prediction map. In determining these (currently 63 but still being refined, maybe going to narrow to 50 or do more likely/less likely, or do top 15 then the rest), I primarily considered number of stakes in the area and how isolated it is to other temples. My list is much more heavily weighted on areas without temples than a typical general conference announcement as it's more difficult for me to predict temples in metros with existing temples. Also, some locations are stated as broad location rather than city as multiple cities/metros in that area could be use (ie. Central Iowa or Scotland).
ReplyDeleteI guess I lied. I'll go ahead and share my list instead of waiting (in separate post). I chose roughly 61 of what I think is several hundred legitimately possible locations. These 61 are located in 20 of the church's 23 areas.
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing more than half of those of any that are announced in upcoming October and April conferences will come off my list, be in the vicinity, or same temple void area (ie. announced for a community that's located in between the same temples as one on my list). Part of my optimism is because I was quite broad with describing some locations (ie. Wasatch Front, another Nigeria) and methodology in determining potential locations. My accuracy will be significantly less for locations near other temples and better for locations away from existing temples.
Area: Most likely temple location I see in Area (and why I came to that conclusion)
ReplyDelete*list of other potential locations in order of probability within each area, but areas are listed in ABC order and not probability.
Africa Central: Kampala Uganda (Uganda has more members than any other country without a temple)
*Another DRC temple - this could be Mbuji-Mayi/Laputa vicinity, or another around Kinshasa
Africa South: Maputo Mozambique (2 stakes and a district clustered together and distant from its nearest temple)
Africa West: Cape Coast Ghana (Seven Stakes, three districts would be in the temple district and it's not in a metro of another temple)
*Another Nigeria
*Benin/Togo
*Bo Sierra Leone
Asia North: Ulaanbaatar Mongolia (2 stakes and a district w/more than 12,000 members around Ulaanbaatar. In addition, it's visa free for Russian citizens [roughly 10k members], e-visa for Chinese citizens [another 10k members?]. Unlike its neighbors, Mongolia practices freedom of religion)
*Western Honshu Island, Japan
Brazil:Florianopolis/San Jose (First in State of Santa Catarina)
*a second Fortaleza Metro
*João Pessoa
*Santa Maria
*another in State of Sao Paulo
Caribbean:Santiago Dominican Republic (6 stakes 4 districts)
Central America: Santa Ana El Salvador (9 stakes)
Europe Central: Southern Spain (roughly six stakes)
*Northern Italy
Europe North: Scotland (6-8 stakes, 0-1 districts depending on whether it takes in Ireland)
Mexico: Poza Rica (6 stakes, 1 district)
*Cancun
*Morelia
*Chihuahua
North America Central: Central Iowa (5-6 stakes)
*Nampa Idaho
*Colorado Springs metro
*Wisconsin
*Blackfoot Idaho
North America Northeast: Cincinnati Ohio (6 stakes)
*Buena Vista Virginia
*New Hampshire
*New Jersey
North America Southeast: Temple void area from Pensacola Florida, Mobile Alabama, Hattiesburg MS, Jackson MS, is a row of cities 2.5 hours or more from their temple (4-5 stakes depending on placement)
North America Southwest: Houston Metro (22 stakes in the Houston Temple district and growing)
*Flagstaff Arizona
*Tulsa Oklahoma
*Phoenix Metro
*El Paso
North America West: North Pole/Fairbanks Alaska (2 stakes-It would save a seven-hour drive to Anchorage)
*Santa Rosa California
*Arlington Washington (or other areas north of Seattle)
Pacific: Savaii Samoa (Six stakes on an island without a temple)
*Majuro Marshall Islands (if it doesn't sink)
*Canberra Australia
*Bora Bora/Raiatea French Polynesia
Philippines: Luzon Island (currently 5 midsize temples for island with 84 stakes and 19 districts), another Metro Manila & Angeles area seem the most likely.
South America Northwest: East of Lima (The other side of the Andes from Lima. Maybe around Huancayo)
*Western Venezuela
*Tacna Peru
*Medellin Colombia
*Piura Perú
*Quevedo Ecuador
South America South: Rosario Argentina (as many as 13 current stakes, 10 districts)
*West of Santiago along coast
*Temuco Chile or south
*Neuquén Argentina or south
*Tacuarembó Uruguay
*Resistencia Argentina
Utah: Wasatch Front (Hard to pinpoint a location due to so many temples and flexibility to realign districts).
*Price Utah
*Evanston Wyoming
No temples on my likely list for
*Asia Area
*Europe East Area
*Europe Unassigned
*Middle East/Africa North Area.
Additional temples for Metros with existing temples are underrepresented in my list due to difficulty of determining which ones are needed.
Just to be clear, I never said I was concerned by the backlog. I said I was shocked. Surprised. If you had told me how many of President Nelson's announced temples had been finished, I would have put it at much higher than 5. That's all. I agree with others who have responded that a backlog in general isn't concerning.
ReplyDeleteIt's also worth noting that by the end of January of next year, the Church will have dedicated at least 13 of the 133 announced by President Nelson. That's almost 10%. 7 of those will happen by the end of November.
DeleteAnd since President Nelson has also set the precedent of other apostles handling those dedications, and of having multiple dedications done on the same date, there are options for handling an existing backlog.
With fall/winter coming to the northern hemisphere, I anticipate we'll see groundbreakings picking up during spring/summer in each respective hemisphere. And with most temples being a smaller size, that means expedited approvals and faster construction are likely for manu of the others nor yet under construction.
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ReplyDeleteThe backlog does not seem too bad when comparing prophets. It took President Hinkley almost 13 years to announce 79 temples and President Monson almost 10 years to announce 45 temples. But President Nelson took about 5 years to announce 133 temples..it can take a few years for groundbreakings to catch-up.
DeleteGreat observations there, Chris. Your comment reminded me that the first "big year" for temple groundbreakings since President Nelson became the prophet was 2020 (during the pandemic), when 21 had groundbreakings. Most of those took place between August and December. Based on what I know now, I think we may only see a few other groundbreakings this year, and that 2024 will be a big year for both temple dedications and temple groundbreakings, both of which could be in the 20s.
Delete31 temples have their site announced (Dubai is not counted in this number as only the neighborhood and not specific site has been announced). For some, there's still some legal requirements to get it off the ground. Cody Wyoming building permit is currently blocked by its mayor.
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping 20 of these can break ground in 2024 with it increasing in subsequent years to match announcements.
David, as I said to Chris above, based on the number of temples that currently have sites confirmed and renderings released, and on the current queue of temples under construction, I anticipate dedications and groundbreakings will both be in the 20s next year. The Church typically can get approvals faster for temples in North America and Latin America than elsewhere in the world, so hopefully a combination of moving construction forward and the fact that smaller temples may get approved more easily will allow major progress on that queue.
DeleteMatt, Thanks for the update of the 32nd and 33rd New Stakes this year, organized this week in the Africa West Area in Cote d'Ivoire and Nigeria.
ReplyDeletehttps://maps.churchofjesuschrist.org/stakes/2072475
https://maps.churchofjesuschrist.org/stakes/2233460
I am surprised by the boundaries of the Bouake Stake; a couple of the wards are actually firmly in the city of Yamoussoukro, which by African standards is quite far away from the stake center.
ReplyDeletePascal, also previously the Bouake Cote d'Ivoire Stake (2072475), was originally organized June 5th, 2016 as the Bouake Cote d'Ivoire District (2072475).
ReplyDelete"Stakes and Districts Organized in 2016"
"Districts
...
13. Bouake Cote d'Ivoire - June 5th, 2016"
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ReplyDeleteAlso, the "Uyo Nigeria South Stake (1362771)" was renamed the "Ibesikpo Nigeria Stake (1362771)"
ReplyDeletehttps://maps.churchofjesuschrist.org/stakes/1362771
The first Tongan branch was recently created in Missouri, in the Far West Stake: https://www.thechurchnews.com/members/2023/8/24/23843443/first-tongan-branch-created-in-trenton-missouri-church-historic-sites?utm_campaign=churchnews-en&utm_content=entry&utm_medium=social_share
ReplyDeleteIs there anywhere where the number of non-English units in the US is published? I would think not, but it would be interesting to look through. I know there have been several Church News stories recently on these language units in areas outside of Utah, such as the Mandarin branch in Plano Texas and the Portuguese branch in North Carolina, always good to read about.
The number of non-Emglish language units in the US is hard to define. Some units are officially bilingual. So the Detroit River Branch in the Westland Stale meets in both English and Spanish.
ReplyDeleteIn the Lansing Michigan Stake there is a Spanish-language group. A large number of units in the US that are language specific are groups.
So there are complicated issues involved.
Great point JPL. I expect that the language unit data probably isn't easily available for a number of reasons, including what you mentioned. I'm sure someone with the time and desire could go through the meetinghouse locator and count each unit, which could work for smaller languages like French or Marshallese, but I would think Spanish alone woul take a few hours. It would be interesting to get any kind of data on groups as well, but I'm sure that would be even harder to acquire.
DeleteDoes anyone have any thoughts about this article posted on the Church News website yesterday about a BYU professor's class.
ReplyDelete"Can ChatGPT teach a Sunday School lesson?
‘Should people fear AI or shun it?’ asks professor Aaron D. Franklin
By Jessica Lawrence 24 Aug 2023, 4:00 PM MDT"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2023/8/24/23843929/byu-education-week-chatgpt-teach-sunday-school-lesson-ai-artificial-intelligence
I do. Can an AI app teach a class? Probably. Should it? Decidedly not. An AI app could replace a teacher in general. But that won't work for a Church class, where teachers are instructed to guide discussions and end with a sincere testimony of the doctrines and principles taught. An AI app will never be capable of that. Nor should it be. I also feel that ChatGPT shouldn't be used to prepare talks either, because that takes the preparation and pure testimony of the member speakers out of the equation. The Lord's house is one of order, based on the pure and sincere testimony of those who speak and teach. AI cannot, should not, and will not ever replicate or replace that. Someone online recently has created an AI imitation of President Nelson in order make it seem like the prophet is saying what they want to hear from him. In a day where even the very elect are being received, I worry that such AI imitations will exacerbate that problem. But that's just my perspective, based on what I know about the gospel and what I've observed about AI. I have heard from people who used ChatGPT to do an initial draft of a talk, then were able to refine that through personal testimony and knowledge. Such an approach could work for a Church class. But the best talks and lessons I've heard are those prepared by others who have personally done the research and put in the work. AI is not capable of imitating or replicating that. I'll get off my soapbox now.
DeleteCan ChatGPT improve temple announcement guesses!? One has to wonder! :-)
ReplyDeleteIn all seriousness though, General Conference is just 5 weeks away. I'll have to get some guesses ready in a couple of weeks or so.
Chris, just a couple other points that came to mind after my comment above. In Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord instructed, "And the Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith. And if ye receive not the Spirit, ye shall not teach." Since AI is incapable of receiving the Spirit, ChatGPT does not meet that injunction and criteria. The scriptures also talk about "all being edified of all" as everyone shares thoughts and experiences. That kind of classroom sharing is not conducive to what ChatGPT is.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, and anyone else who is interested, the Church's Events page on Newsroom shares the following information about the upcoming General Conference:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/event/october-2023-general-conference
That release indicates that a letter to be released early next month will provide details on the upcoming General Conference, which will consist of five unique two-hour sessions that are open to all members and friends of the Church. As we know, when the Church has held a general Saturday evening session in the past, it has usually lasted only 1.5 hours. The exception to that was in April, when Elder Holland had apparently been originally assigned to speak in the Saturday Evening Session. Because he was absent and that talk didn't happen, the Saturday Evening Session in April only lasted an hour.
So we can look forward to that First Presidency letter at some point in early September. There hasn't been an update provided on Elder Holland since the report of his hospitalization following his wife's funeral. So I'm hoping no news is good news. And as I mentioned above, I anticipate that next week, the only temple announcement we might get will report on the beginning of the open house for the Bangkok Thailand Temple.
The week after that, the Church may resume regular temple construction announcements. Two temples in Utah and Mexico's newest temple are all completed and awaiting the announcement of their opening arrangements. The latest update on the Teton River Idaho Temple indicates that sewer and drainage equipment are staged near the temple site, likely in preparation for its' groundbreaking. Since that temple is significantly larger than any recent temple, the approvals on that may take a while, and we don't yet have a rendering for it.
The site plan for the Knoxville Tennesee Temple was approved in mid-May, so hopefully a groundbreaking could soon happen there. In Cleveland Ohio, the Church is seeking a lot consolidation and conditional use permit. And the site plan has been approved for the Cody Wyoming Temple, with the Church working to obtain the necessary permits. We last got a site confirmation on July 25, with the last temple rendering being released on May 1. So hopefully more site announcements, exterior renderings, and groundbreakings will be announced soon.
It's also worth noting that construction is nearing completion for the Urdaneta Philipppines, Salta Argentina, and Coban Guatemala Temples, with Taylorsville Utah and Casper getting closer to a status of nearing completion. So the Church has options in the next several weeks regarding what could be announced. I don't know what all to expect between now and General Conference weekend, but hopefully several other temples will move up the queue between now and then. Hope these insights are helpful to all who read them.
I spoke with some missionaries earlier today in the Dallas East Stake, and they mentioned that a new Spanish group is starting up that roughly covers the same area as the Dallas 9th ward. That area is currently part of the Casa Linda Ward, so there may be a potential split for that ward in the future.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteHere is my predictions list of 20 temples for October 2023:
Mapleton, Utah
Price Utah
Delta Utah
Mt. Vernon Washington *
Colorado Springs Colorado
El Paso Texas (or Las Cruces New Mexico)
Houston Texas South
Shreveport Louisiana
Madison Wisconsin *
Scotch Plains New Jersey
Barbados of Trinidad
Florianopolis Brazil
Santa Maria Brazil *
Rosario Argentina
Osorno Chile
London England Hyde Park *
Yerevan Armenia
Cotonou Benin (or Lome Togo)
Kampala Uganda
Nagoya Japan
My new predictions are marked with an * above.
I started with my April list of 20 predictions. Three of my April predictions were announced in April:
- San Jose California
- Charlotte North Carolina
- Natal Brazil
I changed two April predictions:
- from Milwaukee Wisconsin to Madison Wisconsin
- from Osaka Japan to Nagoya Japan (Nagoya would better serve the member on southwest Honshu)
The three predictions I added were
- Mt. Vernon Washington (Seattle temple is east of the city. Mt. Vernon would be north)
- Santa Maria Brazil (centrally located for cities in west 2/3 of Rio Grande do Sul state)
- London England Hyde Park (much easier for most of south England than London temple)
JTB, is the new Spanish group going to be a part of the Dallas 9th Ward, which is the basic georlgraphical ward, or the existing Casa Lima ward?
ReplyDeleteThis is a question I have never considered, when you split out a group from an existing language ward, who does it go under?
The other tricky issue is who do language specific YSA units go under. I have forgotten if the Tongan YSA ward in Provo is part of the Tongan stake or a YSA stake. I think it may have began in the Tongan stake and later shifted to the YSA stake, when those shifted from being student to YSA.
In my stake the main question was to what extent do we want seperate inner city units. At one time our seperate inner city units came close to being 100% African-American, and close to all African-Americans were in such units.
Today the high councilor assigned to my partly inner-city branch is an African American who lives in a very suburban upscale ward. He also has a white wife. He grew up in Prince George's County Maryland, and served his mission here in Detroit.
The same leader who at one point pushed to have seperate inner city units was the one who instituted the current boundaries where no unit is fully inner city.
JPL, unless I'm misreading JTB's last comment, he indicated that while it covers the same area as the Dallas 9th Ward, but the area covering the group currently falls under the Casa Linda Ward.
DeleteJames is correct JPL. The missionaries starting the group are Spanish speaking elders assigned to the Dallas 9th ward and starting a group in that area, which also happens to be area that is covered by the Spanish-speaking Casa Linda Ward. That ward covers several English speaking wards, so it looks like there is an attempt to create a smaller unit closer to those in the area of the Dallas 9th who may have trouble going down to Casa Linda. I am also curious to know how creating a new language group from an existing language ward works. In my ward we have enough Spanish speakers to create a group, even though we meet in the same building as the Casa Linda Ward.
DeleteThere are other factors in Metro Detroit. Even in 1988 and 1991 when the lines were drawn to create the inner city exclusive units, things were not as stark as they were earlier. Still in 2010 85% of Detroit's population was African-American, yet many suburbs were under 5%. Even those numbers make things look less stark than they were.
ReplyDeleteIn lots of neighborhoods of Detroit the population is well over 95% African-American. Some neighborhoods over 98%. Highland Park, a city surrounded by Detroit that is like Detroit only Moreno is 95% African-American.
Today probably 15% of Detroit's population is Hispanic. That population al.ost exclusively lives in one part of the city, and outside of that area there are virtually no Hispanics.
My branch is probably disproportionately white in the Detroit part. I contribute to that. We have besides me with my African-America wife, 3 married couples who are white who live in Detroit. We also have 2 Hispanics who live in Detroit in our branch, well technically 5 but three are under 8, which since none of the Gispanic parts of Detroit are in out branch, is also disproportionately large.
One is from Venezuela, and may have some African ancestry. The other is actually a quarter Hispanic, and three quarters Samoan. His wife is an African-Amerixan who grew up in Madison Heights, a suburb of Detroit that was almost all white, with some very poor areas and some not so poor areas, until about 2000. She is young enough that most of her hoping up was after 2000. They have 3 children the oldest of whom might be 5. They live in the house of her late grandma.
She illustrates one issue that argued against keeping inner city only units. As more African-Americans move to the suburbs, keeping the old lines makes outreach hard.
On the other hand my wife is coming stantoy convinced their is clannishness, riludebess and maybe racism in the way the white Groose Pointe members of my branch treat black members.
The issues are hugely complex. The lines are not just racial, but socio-economic and educational and religious background.
While we do have converts among the FlGrosse Pointers they tend to have been members longer than the Detroiters, at least the black Detroiters. Most of them are married yo lifelong members as well.
Most Detroit members have not completed h8gh school, or at least only did so by GED. Half our Grosse Pointe members are family members of people who have MDs and are doing a medical residency, or have some other graduate degree.
Since I did not complete my masters in history I am educationally lower than most Grosse Pointers.
We have some Groosee Pointers who are Michigan raised, but most are from other states, heavily from Utah, with some other western states represented.
Most members in Detroit are life long Detroit residents.
At least 3 of the places my wife lived growing up were in the branch boundaries, and she had relatives living in the branch biu Darien as early as 1905, when they came from Canada where thry had gone in the underground railroad in 1858.
My wife may be the branch resident with the first ancestors yo move to the brach, even she has other ancestors who came up from Alanama about 1940. Her Grandmother was raised in Detroit by Alabama expatriates who loved the trips they made downsouth, but her grandmother was always a city resident through and through.
We do have one member who is of complex Dominican and Jamaican descent. I guess that would technically make him Hispanic. I am not sure he would self describe as such.
I have in writing this realized that I know less about some branch members than I would like. I wish I knew how to build more feeling of connection in the branch.
https://www.deseret.com/2023/8/24/23826563/byu-pathway-worldwide-africa
ReplyDeleteThis is a very good article on BYU-Pathway Worldwide in Kenya. It tries to being in dome other African countries, but really gives us the best picture in Kenya.
It does not pull punchs. Nor does it try to portray this program as something that by itself will solve all problems.
That is why I like it. My biggest gripe is that calling DR Congo French dpeakubg is kres the reality, both that about 60% of the population knows no French, and that the other 40% are almost not at all native speakers, and many have little skill.
At some point expanding BYU-Pathway outside of the Amglo-sphere may be needed. However that will not be an easy task.
This article is very good at telling the story of what is happening to people. It shows how this program is being run as a truly Zion program.
I heard from someone at the admission dept at BYU-Idaho that Pathway at some point is supposed to start a portuguese language pilot program in Brazil. Don't know much beyond that.
DeleteI still think the Wisconsin Temple will be further north than Madison. I pick Appleton because that is where my Dad was baptized and my granddad was branch president, but I think Green Bay is too far north.
ReplyDeleteI still think Madison more likely than Milwaukee. If Milwaukee does have a temple announced, I think that would make Appelton/Green Bay a strong contender to get a temple ASAP. A Milwaukee Temple would be great for Milwaukie, and depending where it is placed exactly, might even draw some Illinois residents. It would be an improvement for going to the temple for any Chicago assigned Wisconsin resident, but would be so far from most that another temple would seem likely.
Santa Maria Brazil seems likely. I suspect we will see at least 2 Brazil Temples announced, but would not be surprised to see more than that.
Brazil has functionally the same number of members as Mexico, and I believe has more stakes. Mexico City is a bigger temple than Sao Paulo. Mexico is only 3 ahead of Brazil in temple announced, and when Brasilia is dedicated the difference will be 3 dedicated as well. Mexico however had as many dedicated temples in 2001 as Brazil has now.
I just realized Peru has more dedicated temples than the Philippines, but the Philippines has more announced. Does Peru or the Philippines have more stakes?
I promise this will be the end of my comments for now. Sorry if I spoke too much.
Also, JPL, I heard several years ago that the first Wisconsin temple was most likely to be announced in Green Bay. A subsequent report I cannot personally confirm indicates that the Church may have procured one or two potential parcels in Green Bay for that purpose. But I see a day in the next 2-4 (or sooner) decades when temples will operate in Green Bay, Madison, Milwaukee, and Appleton.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJPL,
ReplyDeleteThe Provo Utah YSA 15th Stake has three Tongan wards (Provo YSA 220th Ward, Provo YSA 221st Ward, and Provo YSA 222nd Ward) in a stake that has nine English wards. I'm not sure why they're still using numbers, especially triple digit numbers. Several cities have gone to naming wards after neighborhoods, parks, streets, etc.
Yes, I've noticed in many wards - particularly larger, regardless of race, tend to develop clicks among the members. I see this in everything between all-white and mix wards. Of course racism should never exist. I think it's because theres natural tendency is to 1) associate with smaller groups, and 2) associate with others of common interests ("birds of a feather flock together"), which these clicks seem to be more pronounced in larger wards. I'm not saying it's right, but that's what's happening. Also, I've noticed on many occasions members are willing to fellowship a new member..until other new members join, then they change focus.
I noticed in some cities, they try to divide the wealth and the poor more evenly across the city. In others, it's not the case.
Peru has 630,099 members in 112 stakes and 17 districts. The Philippines has 805,209 members in 123 stakes and 56 districts. The Philippines added nearly 50,000 members between year end 2020 and 2022 whereas Peru added 11,000. Peru covers a larger land mass, but the Philippines is an archipelago which makes travel more difficult. So naturally, the Philippines would need more temples in order to give the same access to its members. Also, the Urdaneta Temple was announced in 2010 and expected to be completed roughly 14 years later whereas the Arequipa Temple was announced in 2012 and completed 7 years later in 2019.
Milwaukee is only about an hour from Glenview, where the Chicago Temple is, and the drive is actually not that bad in terms of traffic usually (much of Chicagoland is farther from the Chicago Temple than Milwaukee is). I would assume that this is probably prohibitive for a temple in Milwaukee until Chicago gets so busy that another temple is constructed in the general vicinity. My best guess is Madison, then Green Bay, and then perhaps Milwaukee someday.
ReplyDeleteThe trend seems to be to announce between 15 and 20 temples a conference and we will likely see a repeat of this. My suggestion for 16 temples is as follows:
Burlington, Vermont
Buena Vista, Virginia
Jackson, Mississippi
Des Moines, Iowa
Rapid City, South Dakota
Tremonton, Utah
Flagstaff, Arizona
Nampa, Idaho (or more generally a third temple in the Boise area)
Juneau, Alaska
Dublin, Ireland
Malaga, Spain
Ulanbataar, Mongolia
Cape Coast, Ghana
Lome, Togo
Punta Arenas, Chile
Florianopolis, Brazil
Noteworthy, no temples in Central America or the Philippines. I anticipate that a more significant number of those is forthcoming in the next couple of years when we see the Mexico City model implemented a few more times in the largest metropolitan areas (e.g., Guatemala City or Manila). But this could absolutely happen sooner.
We must remember that Mexico has had the gospel for almost 70 years longer than Brazil. However, I believe that temple expansion planning was more intelligent in Brazil, even though the saints took longer to receive their buildings here. This is because the temples in Mexico are mostly the small temples of Hinckley, while the buildings in Brazil are more beautiful and reflect the architecture of the country; moreover, Brazil's total m² exceeds Mexico's, even though Mexico surpasses it in number of buildings and the oldest temples in both countries have a large difference in size.
ReplyDeleteThe speed at which temples were built under President Hinckley is breath taking. There are huge advantages to building temples at that speed which we should not underestimate.
ReplyDeleteProvo they are naming the YSA wards with high digits. There are almost no Provo direct wards that have the Provo name,but I believe there are a few in the city center.
The numbers are more than total wards. They skipped numbers so they could add more to stakes and have all the numbers together.with most wards consisting of apartments mainly lived in by BYU students There are not string neighborhood identities. The numbers also allow tweaking boundaries without needing to often tweak names.
For any that are interested, here is an article posted this morning on the Church News website online, regarding the distribution of the 285 Stakes in Brazil by State or Federal District.
ReplyDelete"GLOBAL
Where are the stakes in Brazil?
The 285 stakes of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are spread among all the country’s states
By David Schneider 27 Aug 2023, 7:00 AM MDT"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/global/2023/8/27/23844678/where-are-the-latter-day-saint-stakes-in-brazil-states-sao-paulo-rio-grande-do-sul-temples
Elder Rasband was in Queen Creek for a granddaughter presenting in sacrament meeting just before her mission. He decided to call a special stake conference for the stake he was in and two neighboring stakes.
ReplyDeleteOne of the stakes was the new Queen Creek Empire Stake. That stake includes Empire Road, so that can generally place it for this reason:
Before the conference began, they took him around to the ither two stake centers involved in the conference (originating stake not known) and on his return to the stake where the broadcast originated. He said 'I can see thqt you need a few more buildings here, when I get back to Salt Lake I will talk to (the department needed) about the need.
Wards are being formed south of Riggs in both Queen Creek and San Tan, taking small pieces of other wards in the process.
How long until a Queen Creek or even a San Tan temple due to site availability?
Jim Anderson,
ReplyDeleteI just looked at the Gilbert Temple reservation system and I see that well over 40 reservations are available for every endowment session for tomorrow thru Saturday, except for one Saturday session, which only has a few available. Mesa is a bit more booked, but not my much. San Tan is so close to Gilbert that a new temple would be built when needed and not due to proximity. With that many open slots, I'd be highly surprised to see a new temple built in the area until attendance is way up. If Gilbert gets close to capacity on Fri/Sat, the districts could easily be aligned to add a few stakes in the Gilbert district to the Mesa district. I'd expect a new temple to be announced after we see a realignment and after we see Gilbert running at 95%+ capacity on Friday night and Saturday and healthy use during the week.
I could be wrong, but in general I don't expect new announcements in districts with an underutilized temple unless travel time is a main consideration. The new temple in Lethbridge Canada made sense due to the location of the stakes in relation to the temple (and I am guessing attendance was strong from Lethbridge as well). Regarding the Feather River temple - a huge number of workers and patrons came from the Yuba City/Gridley/Chico stakes and surrounding areas to the Sacramento Temple for YEARS (and it was even the case for years when they had to travel 3+ hours to the Oakland temple before the Sacramento temple was dedicated.
Just my thoughts.
I'm only going off of my own speculation, but yes, filling up your local temple will increase the chances of getting another temple in the area. Although I don't think 95% capacity is a requirement for another temple in a metro area.
ReplyDeleteWhile thresholds of members and attendance will need to be higher, parts of the metro more than 30 minutes could potentially see a temple. A temple worker I knew in Dallas Temple was surprised when the Prosper temple was announced because he only saw 35 or 40 percent capacity on times he worked and another temple already announced that would already split the district. Prosper, even as close as it is to the Dallas Texas Temple (also north of City center), is a 30 minute trip (good traffic) down a toll road that can easily get congested. It's also the fastest-growing side of the DFW metro.
Ulaanbaatar Mongolia has been on one of my most likely predictions since I've started making predictions. 2 stakes and a district in an extremely isolated location. In addition has less visa restrictions for members in its neighbors Russia and China than any other temple. Unlike its neighbors, Mongolia has a proselytizing mission. And the church first made presence in the 1990's under invitation of the Mongolian government. Yet, to this day, no temple announcement has been made.
On the other hand, Canada has 2 operating temples (Regina and Winnipeg) that both only have two stakes in its temple district. Winnipeg only had one stake in its present temple district when it was announced. And while they were still distant from their nearest temple at time of announcement which may have required overnight stay, members then still had much easier means of getting to their nearest temple than those members currently in Ulaanbaatar.
Conclusion: Numbers alone don't seem always explain why a temple gets announced. Although, having current attendance, members, and amount of isolation does increase chances of getting one announced. It appears each temples are announced on a case-by-case basis and not just because they met the numbers and checked the boxes. It's also why its difficult to make predictions.
I wonder if this article about the Bangkok Thailand Temple openhouse and photos is going to be considered our weekly Temple announcement for today. Or if we will get more news later in the afternoon.
ReplyDelete"TEMPLES
See interior, exterior photos of the Bangkok Thailand Temple as Elder Gong welcomes media-day guests"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2023/8/28/23848127/bangkok-thailand-temple-interior-exterior-photos-elder-gong-welcomes-media-guests
Random question to our CDOL-access folks: did the branches in Fort Madison IA and Keokuk IA recently become wards? If so, that would be a nice accomplishment in a part of Iowa that doesn't exactly have the best economic and demographic outlook. This would also make the Nauvoo IL Stake the only stake in Illinois that is a realistic split candidate in the foreseeable future, although a new stake created in the area may not be headquartered in Illinois. Instead, if minimum membership requirements are met, it could take the wards and branches in Iowa and Missouri to create a new stake with 5 wards and 2 branches there, leaving the Nauvoo Stake with two wards in Nauvoo, two wards in Quincy, and one ward in Macomb. Galesburg could probably go either way between Peoria and Nauvoo as needed to make the numbers work.
ReplyDelete@Pascal:
ReplyDeleteI have a friend in Nauvoo area who said that the units were redrawn so that they now have to commute from Nauvoo to Keokuk. He wasn't happy about it, but it seemed to be about supporting the unit in Keokuk.
Anyway, I'm sure someone with CDOL access can verify, but it doesn't look like from what I've heard on the ground this is a case of Keokuk growing to a state where a stake split is warranted.
Good news!
ReplyDelete"Site locations released for 4 new temples — in California, Brazil and Bolivia
The sites are for new houses of the Lord in San Jose, California; La Paz, Bolivia; Natal, Brazil; and Teresina, Brazil.
By Scott Taylor 28 Aug 2023, 2:11 PM MDT"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2023/8/28/23820635/san-jose-california-la-paz-bolivia-natal-teresina-brazil-temple-sites-locations
"First Presidency announces Manhattan New York Temple renovation plans, including rendering
The temple will close next year for a renovation expected to take about three years
By Scott Taylor 28 Aug 2023, 2:11 PM MDT"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2023/8/28/23820749/manhattan-new-york-temple-renovation-plans
Glad to see they are keeping the Angel Moroni on the Manhattan temple after the renovation!
DeleteThanks Chris!
ReplyDeleteThe Manhattan New York Temple rendering iooks very beautiful
ReplyDeleteHow many temples have baptismal fonts *not* supported/surrounded by oxen? Today while I was looking at the official photos of the Hong Kong China temple, I noticed that the font does not appear to be supported by oxen, although it is possible they were not shown due to the angle of the photograph (https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/hong-kong-china-temple/photographs/#Official-4). Is that the case? Are there other temples like that?
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of common sculptural elements on temples, I too am glad the Angel Moroni statue is included in the rendering of the Manhattan remodel. I also like that the exterior facade appears very Art Deco in its style -- a very Manhattan look.
--Felix
I will note that if you look carefully, there is a Christus statue at the entrance of the Manhattan remodel. I am not familiar if there currently is a statue there.
ReplyDeleteChecking out the rendering for the renovated temple in Manhattan, I wonder if the reason for the renovation means that the Church acquired the side of the building that belonged to the Museum of Folk Art next door.
ReplyDeleteI say this because apparently the whole building will be updated, but the photos give the idea that the temple shared space with the museum, or at least the entrance to the museum was in the block that houses the temple...
Also it appears to have a new building tower behind the temple. I don't see that on any current photos or Google maps satellite images. I thought the church owned the apartment tower next door.
ReplyDeleteTemple reservations on Monday for Friday and Saturday is probably not going to retell us actual use. To be fair, if the whole week was booked up now that would probably be a strong sign of more need, but I assume most people book less in advance.
ReplyDeleteI am sure at one point a temple will be built somewhere in Queen Creek or San Tan Valley. I have no clue if that will happen before or after a far west metro Phoenix Temple.
Arizona is the only state in the US mainland west of the line at the west end of the Dakotas that has not had a temple announced by President Nelson. To be fair Arozon got 4 temples under President Monson.
Flagstaff might be the next place in Arizona to get a temple but it is hard to know for sure.
One thing is that the decision to try to build a temple in an area often proceeds the formal announcement. In the spring or summer of 1998 President Hinckley told a gathering of members in Paris that Paris was ready for a temple and that they were seeking a site. President Hinckley would die almost 10 years later with no formal announcement of a Paris Temple having been made.
ReplyDeleteBack in 2004 I took a class on the internationsl growth of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at BYU. The professor mentioned that it was interesting that despite membership numbers in the Philippines there was only 1 temple. Today there are 2 temples, with 10 more announced, the same numbers Mexico had I believe on the day Colonia Jyarez was dedicated. It would not surprise me if come October the Philippines will have as many announced temples as Mexico did when President Monson died.
The process of getting people ready for a temple at times takes quite some effort.
The process of getting a temple built can also be very long, especially since the Church refuses to greese the palms of officials yo speed up the process.
I am very excited about today's announcements.
I am hoping we soon get some more Groundbreaking dates announced. Getting 4 sites announced on the same day was quite exciting.
I was hoping for a little more details in the Msnhattan Temple. Part of me hopes with Mamhattan being renovated they decide this is a hood time to give New Jersey a temple.
It is not very clear to me what the Manhattan renovation will mean. It looks like the building will have more exterior glass. I say the more the better. I live in Deteoit where pist-riot architecture has given us bricked over windows, cement blocked over windows, too small windows yo be useful and a general lack of windows. One semester in high school, out in the suburbs so not post-riot architecture, just poor choice 1970s architecture, I had no classes with exterior windows. Wisely my high school has since increased windows, but in Detrout we are still in post riot mindset and windows are far too rare.
I have yo second that it looks like the remodeled Manhattan Temple will have a Christus Statie in the entrance. At leat in the artists model. It is possible that another statue of Jesus Christ could be chosen, but probably not likely.
ReplyDeleteThe Deseret News article mentions that there will be more glass and the spire will be redone. It also looks like more space on the ground level will be enclosed.
I am not sure what all the space there is used for. My understanding is the Church does own the adjacent apartment building, but possibly through a legally distinct subsidiary.
I believe the government and public affairs office that Elder Corbitt used to be the director of may have bern in the same building as the temple.
I read City Saints, a book about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in New York City published shortly after the Manhattan Temple was dedicated. I still do not understand the logistics of what all is in the Manhattan Temple building, how many neighboring buildings the Church owns, and such. I believe I read somewhere theMamhattan Stake Center is not a different building in New York.
Hmm, I also wonder if when Elder Ronald A. Rasband was president if the New York New York North Mission if the mission office was in that buying. So there may be two general authorities with very deep connections yo that building.
It does look like the main entrance from the ground will be larger, w8th a statue of Jesus Christ, and more inviting.
Aldo note it was just over 2 years from announcement yo dedication. This renovation is projected yo take 3 years, and not start until next year. So renovation will take longer than building. It also though appears the outer building will change more with this renovation than it did with the building.
The inner building changed with the making it a temple, but the outside not much.
JPL, I served in the NYNY North Mission from 2001-2003 and lived in Queens, NY from 2007-2014. The public affairs office was in the same building as the temple, but it may have been moved to the new stake center on the east side. When president Rasband was mission president, the mission office and mission home were separate buildings. The mission home was behind the meetinghouse in Scarsdale and I the mission office was in Scarsdale (or close to it). When I lived in Queens there was a small church distribution center in the same building as the temple, but it may have only sold garments. At one time there was also a family history center in the building, but I think it moved to another building, perhaps the one on 14th street.
ReplyDelete@Pascal Friedmann
ReplyDeleteIt looks that both Fort Madison IA and Keokuk IA becamee wards on the 9th of July this year.
Thank you, Miro and James, for your updates on Ft Madison and Keokuk. That makes a lot more sense given what I know about the area. Although I think Keokuk is actually reasonably nice, but there are few opportunities. I have spent less time in Fort Madison (but they do have an amazing Chinese restaurant there!). The rest of the town doesn't seem to be in that great of a shape.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteA look at an old article (from 1973) for the building that would become the Manhattan New York temple, meetinghouse and apartment tower.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nytimes.com/1973/04/22/archives/tower-for-the-mormon-church-is-being-erected-at-lincoln-sq-two.html
Heard as far as Gilbert Arizona they have the typical slower weekdays like many of the bigger tempeles do but most weekends (Friday-Saturday) it does get busier to packed.
ReplyDelete80 percent capacity is when the temple department starts looking for locations to site another one.
For any here who are interested in growth in the Middle East Area.
ReplyDelete"Kurdistan group visits Church headquarters, recognizes Church efforts in Middle East
By Mary Richards
The Church works with the Barzani Charity Foundation to improve lives in the Kurdistan region of Iraq"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/global/2023/8/29/23849407/barzani-charity-foundation-kurdistan-visit-salt-lake-city-church-middle-east-humanitarian-efforts
According from what I heard from the Memphis temple president a couple of weeks ago, while used more on Saturdays, the Memphis Tennessee Temple is averages attendance of about 20% capacity. The stat was mentioned in a talk in effort to encourage members to attend more. There are 6 stakes in the temple district with two of those in the Memphis Metro. Most others have to drive 2-3 hours (one way) to get to the temple. While its much closer and accessible than with many other stakes in the world, 5-6 hours of driving plus the time in the session makes it hard to go during the workweek.
ReplyDeleteRegarding oxen in baptismal fonts -- I toured the Helena Montana Temple and was surprised that it only had 9 oxen. I believe Yigo, San Juan, and Praia also only have 9. I thought I heard the original Atlanta Temple did not have any oxen until the baptistry was remodeled in 1997. I wish we had a better photo of the baptistry in Hong Kong to see what was going on there. Has anyone been to the temple since it was rededicated?
ReplyDeleteI was in Cardston and Lethbridge last week. I was visiting with the temple missionaries in Cardston, and they opined that the reason Lethbridge is getting a temple is similar to why Ephraim is getting a temple so close to Manti -- the Lethbridge Temple will allow better usage by wheelchairs.
I think the Freiberg Germany Temple originally did not have any oxen. It was designed to have only the minimum needed for a functioning temple when it was dedicated in what was then communist West Germany. However I understand that when it was later renovated in the united Germany most of the nice features were added.
DeleteSomeone said there appears to be a new towe/highrise office building by the temple in the artists rendering. That is my take. It looks like an all glass high rise. Is that a part of the project, some unconnected project, or the artists bring artistic?
ReplyDeleteI think Elder Corbitt became head of the public/government affairs office there in 2007. I know for sure he had that position by 3008, when he spoke at the 30th anniversary celebration for the Revelation of the priesthood. He was also Cherry Hill Stake president died.
He did not speak at the 40th anniversary celebration, but was evidently one of the key organizers.
Maybe he will be the Presiding authority for the 50th anniversary celebration in 2028. We shall see.
From the New York Times article the residential building is under a 100 year lease, so it would seem there is no way to convert use there.
With New York City being back to one mission I wonder where the mission office is.
All 3 missions I know very well had distinct mission homes and offices. Here in Detroit they used to be close, but then the home moved a few miles west and the office a few miles east yo be in a chaple do they are now close to 10 miles apart.
I really do want to know if the Manhattan Temple renovation includes a huge office tower, or if the artist was just having Falun with throwing in new buildings.
I really, really like the look of the new temple. Especially the new spire.
I looked again toda at Google maps and street view shows a building under construction on that block that appears to match that glass looking highrise.
DeleteWhen President Hinckley was a missionary his mission president and mission mom lived in an apartment above the mission office. However the logistics there are interesting. President Hinckley served in the European Mission with Elder Merril of the 12, and Elder Merrill's wife who joined the Church no earlier than her late 30s not too long before theor marriage. Elder Merrill's first wife, who was a granddaughter of Orson Hyde and took classes from Janes E.Talmage at BYA, died fairly young. They were more an area leadership couple than a normal mission president. That had started partway though Elder Merrill's predecessor, John A. Widstoe's term. Elder Widstoe was European Mission president for 6 years, the first 3 he was also British Mission president, the second three he only supervised other mission presidents with no direct area.
ReplyDeleteHaving read that old NYT article about the building of what olis noelw the Manhattan Temple I have yo again say that a stake is not like a Diocese. Some Catholic parishes today have 2, and maybe even 3 buildings in them. Any building will have multiple weekend services. Many Catholic parishes have as many of more attendees than even the largest stakes. A stake is vaguely like a multi-siteegachurch, and since some stakes have only 2 or 3 buildings. It is vaguely like a multi site parishes.
Most Catholic dioceses have dozens, and quite a few over 100 parishes. They tend to e more like areas.
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ReplyDeleteElder S. Gifford Nielsen, president of the Africa West Area, was in the Gambia recently. HThe Church has worked with the First Lady's foundation to build borehole.
ReplyDeleteElder Nielsen was at events celebrating the opening of boreholes. He also met with the president of Gambia. Among those in that meeting was the president of the Banjul branch.
The Banjul branch has 67 members, and has existed since June of last year.
Speaking of West Africa, after the military Coup in Niamey, Niger a few weeks ago, today the military leaders of Gabon have had a Coup in Libreville, to remove the elected democratic President of the country. I wonder who is next to fall in West Africa?
ReplyDeleteChris,
ReplyDeleteThere's a couple of branches in Libreville. My question with these uprisings is how it affects the local members. Is this new government going to allow freedom of worship?
We've seen Russia become more restrictive and even China which was restrictive a few years ago is starting to clamp down harder. In other countries freedoms are being loosened, but lately, it seems like more are changing to become more restrictive.
Between those that give up on faith and God and those that prevent others from doing so, there are many who do not have proper access to the Restored Good News of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteBut, all in due time.
I am pretty sure great things are happening on every continent, across each land.
The Gospel is going forth, the Spirit of Elijah is strong.
Any news on Turkey lately?
I don't know much other than as of late June, Turkey is no longer part of a mission and congregations there are now part of the newly created Europe Central Area District which is administered by the Europe Central Area instead. That's all I personally know about the current situation in Turkey.
ReplyDeleteI saw the rendering for the Manhattan New York Temple. I kinda like it and when it's done it's going to be pretty hard to miss. The current design does kinda blend in with the buildings.
ReplyDeleteFor the purposes of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Gabon is in the Africa Central Area. I am not sure if it is under the Yaounde Cameroon Mission or the Republic of Congo Brazaville Mission. I know it was under Ellie Monga when he was president of the Brazaville Mission. Brother Monga was the father of the Church in Kolwezi, DR Congo from about age 18 to 21. At the end of that period he wore himself out baptizing a few hundred people in one afternoon. Some time later he left on a mission to Ivory Coast.
ReplyDeleteBrother Monga was later an area seventy, a calling he was recently released from. He is truly a great man of faith.
However even great men of faith have their limits. The Church has grown in the Republic of the Congo, and us getting a temple. The other several countries Brother Mongo oversaw as mission president have yet to see much, although hopefully Csmeroon will get a stake before the start of 2025.
The Church News just published an article on how the Church is progressing in Cuba. Elder Doates went there and spoke in 2022. He may have been the first apostle to do so.
ReplyDeletePresident Acosta, the mission president mentioned in the article, who has since seen his term end is an interesting case. He was based in the Dominican Republic. President Acosta was resident in Utah when called as mission president, but had been an area seventy living in the Dominicsn Republic called in 2014. He was area welfare manager in 2014. In 2020 he was a 50 year old counselor in an elders quorum presidency living in Sandy
Utah. As of 2020 they no longer told us incoming mission president occupations. I suspect he was working at some high level position for the Church, but I could be wrong. I hope to have a better idea when Elder Acosta is called as a general authority in 2024. I also hope Elder John Amos is called next year. My record of predicting calls is pretty bad. To date I once made a prediction that a specific general authority would not be called as an apostle. He was later called as an apostle. Since only about 5% of general authorities get called as apostles, maybe even less, it takes skill to be wrong there. I had my reasons, although thry might have been part built on misunderstand the exact nature of some things.
I suspect if we take the sum total of 16 general authorities called in my lifetime and divide it by the sum total of now eneritized, dead, or released general authorities who existed from the day of my birth in 1980 on, you would come to well under 5%, but from 1985 to about 2000 or a little later there was a higher turnover in general authorities. In 1985 and for a few years after there were general authorities dalled eith plans yo release in 5 years. Of those called this year, the shortest term might be that of Elder Corbitt who may serve 9 years. Elder Morrison called last year will not be 70 until 2047. So he will possibly be a general authority for 25 years.
To be fair, the person I predicted would not be an apostle was at the time a member of the presidency of the 70. The last time there was a set of 1 or more apostles called where none were in the presidency of the 70 I believe was when Henry B. Eyring was called yo the 12 in 1995, do before any current single mslr full-time missionary was born.
To be fair there have been 3 men called dance then who were not in the presidency of the 70, but all were called in groups. Both apostles called by President Nelson were in the presidency of the 70.
I would hate if media types started writing about general authorities bring apostalable like done write about which cardinal is papabile.
So President Acosta who was over the Church in Cuba was at one point a US resident. I do not know for sure, but I suspect he was only a Dominican Republic citizen. I also realized that from I believe 2014-2017 Elder Corbitt was president of the same mission.
ReplyDeleteWhen Elder and Sister Corbitt headed the mission did thry oversee the Church in Cuba. In fact part of me almost wonders if they gave that mission Cuba because Elder Corbitt had the public and government relations background needed in the leader over the Church in Cuba at that time.
This started as an observation on freedom levels.
The Gambia has seen an increase in religious freedom since the election of its current president in 2016. Before that it was officially an Islamic Republic. The population there is 96% of do Muslim. There are just over 2 million people in the Gambia. That is drill about 20 times the population of Tonga, so in theory the Church could grow there.
SS8erra Leone is not far away, and may be over 80% Muslim, available figures are very variable. However the percentage of Christians in much higher in Sierra Leone than the Gambia, and the total number of Christians is probably 10 times as great if not more.
Sierra Leone has the highest net political and social/societal religious freedom index in the world. It rates as having more religious freedom than the US.
I also had close friends who baptized a man in the Bronx who had been the leader of a group of over 1 million Muslims in Sierra Leone. This did not lead yo mass conversions, but it may have lead yo some of the other former members of that group joining the Church.
Keep in kind the mission in Tonga was nearly closed in the 1930s.
One more note on freedom. The first time DR Congo ever had a peaceful transfer of power was in 2019. Many members see a connection between Elder Renlund asking the Lord yo bless the nation with peace in the Kinshasa Temple dedicatory prayer earlier that year and the peaceful transfer of power that happened later that year.
I have been reading a book called Africa's,World War, which is about the wars in DR Xongo and its neighbors in the mid-1990s. It is an odd book, I believe a sequel of sorts to another book which covers the Rwandan Genicide. This book talks about the aftermath of the Genocide and how that sparked a larger more deadly multi-national war. It however also merger in other conflicts like the very Ling standing war in Angola. The book was written about 2007 or maybe a little earlier.
One more thought. Kenya and DR Congo each I believe first got missionaries in about 1986. Kenya has 3 stakes, DR Congo 23. DR Congo has at leat twice as many people, but still has more stakes per person. One reason for this may be Krnya until about 2010 had a policy of converts having yo pass baptismal interviews in English, DR Congo by about the sane time had at least a few Swahili units in Lumumbashi, which I probably missed spelled. Dome suggest the Krnyan policy created high activity rates, yet DR Congo seems to have higher rates.
My general inoression is that more people from the DR Congo joined the Church abroad than did those from Kenta before 1986.
The full factors of the different Church trajectories are very hard to seperate. Both countries were the headquarters of one massive international mission until well after 2000.
Kenya had a visit room the president of the Church in the late 1990s, as far as I know no president of the Church has ever gone to DR Congo. DR Congo has had more war, and maybe a mire repressive government.
The different trajectories are interesting. I am not sure what the factors causing them are.
My understanding is that Turkey has been without full time missionaries for a while.
ReplyDeleteJames and Diane Toronto (I think I got her name right), who have been the president ans matron if the Rome Italy Temple I believe for about a year, were also the first leaders of the Central Eurasian Mission formed in Turkey a few years ago. They had previously been on Church assignment in Jordan, and lead the Italy Catania Mission. President Toronto was a,BYU professor of something related yo studying the Middle East. He was at one point my stake president. I was only in that stake about a,month to month and a half and may have only heard him speak once, at most twice.
So at least those in Turkey can find a familiar face at the temple they are assigned to. I have no idea how many members from Turkey make it to Rome.
I ender where thecfirst temple in Turkey will be? I would be surprised if any apostle called in the 20th century is still alive when it is announced, but some general authorities called in the 30th-century might still be spostles. I believe Elder Uchtdorf, Elder Christopherson and Elder Andersen were all called in the 30th century.. plus Elder Rasband was called in 2000 which is technically the 20th century. I forgot when Elder Cook was called. Elder Renlund may currently be the spittle who has been a general authority the leat time.
I am hopeful that the war in Ukraine will ultimately lead to positive changes in Russia, or what is today Russia. The country is extremely complex and may have a hard time staying united following what will likely be an eventual military defeat. There are definitely chances that a more pro-western government will eventually establish itself in Russia, or at least parts of it, which would allow for an easier Church establishment and the assignment of missionaries. In the meantime, we need to make use of the parts of the world that are open to missionaries.
ReplyDeleteI am also wondering about Ukraine. Historically, it was certainly the country in eastern Europe with the strongest Church infrastructure and the highest level of receptivity, even though - again - the Church still failed to establish a truly widespread presence. There are still vast areas including some sizable cities in Ukraine which never had a Church presence as far as I can tell. My best guess would be that Orthodox Christianity will likely struggle and see a lot of attrition due to the war and its ties to the regime in Moscow. Very possibly, people will be looking for alternatives, and I believe the Church should be present as soon as conditions allow. Perhaps in the Lviv Mission, that will be fairly soon. From there, we will have to see.
Also, after the great success of my earlier list of potential districts becoming stakes in the Philippines, I decided to create a similar list for Brazil. There is some anecdotal information out of Brazil of an increase in the number of convert baptisms recently (especially in southern Brazil), but I know we have frequent readers on this blog who are likely more familiar with what is going on there right now. In either case, Brazil has the "masses" of members which should allow for districts to advance to stakes in relatively sizable numbers once there are enough units and enough active members, including priesthood holders, in these districts to organize stakes. Here is my list of districts which fulfill the number of units requirement to become stakes:
ReplyDeleteNanuque Brazil District (7 branches)
Três Corações Brazil District (7 branches)
Colatina Brazil District (6 branches)
Rondonópolis Brazil District (6 branches)
Itacoatiara Brazil District (6 branches)
Botucatu Brazil District (6 branches)
São Sebastião Brazil District (6 branches)
Osório Brazil District (6 branches)
Barcarena Brazil District (5 branches)
Montes Claros Brazil District (5 branches)
Leopoldina Brazil District (5 branches)
Cabo Frio Brazil District (5 branches)
Três Rios Brazil District (5 branches)
Sousa Brazil District (5 branches)
Parnaíba Brazil District (5 branches)
Lagarto Brazil District (5 branches)
Guarapuava Brazil District (5 branches)
Currently, only 17 districts in Brazil meet the minimum unit requirements to become stakes, and the majority of these only has five branches. Quite a few districts in Brazil have no realistic chance at becoming stakes in the near future unless significant growth occurs. Brazil also retains a surprisingly large number of mission branches which are not part of any stake or district, and large areas without an official Church presence (and I am not limiting this just to the Amazon rain forest). Significant untapped potential remains and quite a bit of work is still left to be done there while we wait for other countries to open the doors to the restored Gospel.
I don't think any current apostles were called in the 30th century. That would be almost 900 years from now.
ReplyDeleteHas anybody heard of any new Stakes/Districts organized last weekend? Seems like it was this time last week that Matt updated his list.
ReplyDeleteI don't know of anything new this week and it is common to go a week or two without new stake creations. Last year there was 33 new stakes. YTD that we know of is also 33 stakes with more announcements in coming weeks.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying there wasn't as sometimes it can take weeks before it becomes known. We get full reports of temple dedications within hours, but there's a significant delay for reporting new stakes. For example, here's a Church News article published on August 13 to announce some of the stakes created in May and June. Church newsroom also publishes new stakes late.
https://www.thechurchnews.com/callings/2023/8/13/23827630/4-stakes-created-in-togo-ecuador-and-saratoga-springs-utah-costa-rica
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/new-stakes-and-stake-presidencies-announced-in-june-2023
South Jordan Utah Highland Park Stake created 08/20/2023
ReplyDeleteWe may have missed this, I still have not seen a letter, missed church Sunday as I was on an airplane returning from a funeral so I don't know if my bishop got anything.
ReplyDeletehttps://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/event/october-2023-general-conference
Jim Anderson, that article indicates that an early September letter will confirm that the October 2023 General Conference will consist of 5 unique 2-hour sessions, including a Saturday evening session for all members and friends of the Church (though I assume that the evening session will actually only be 1.5 hours) so the earliest the letter will be released will be tomorrow, with Sunday being the earliest it will be read aloud in Sacrament Meeting. Hope that helps.
DeleteThank you, Nephi!
ReplyDeleteChris, since you'll probably ask, the CDOL indicates that the stake in question includes the Highland Park 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 8th, 9th, and 10th wards. Hope that helps.
DeleteI meant 20th-century. I think specifically current apostles called as general authorities in the 20th century. I think in all it is 9 of the living 15 apostles, although that includes Elder Rasband called in 2000.
ReplyDeleteI think we might still be at over half of all apostles not having been either seventies or in the Presiding Bishopric. In the last 60 years only 4 non-general authorities were called as apostles. I believe there were 25 apostles called in thar time, and we can say of the last 27 apostles called only 4 were non-general authorities. Yet President Hinckley of all the 17 presidents of the Church was a non-apostle general authority.
It looks like in and around the Highland park stake a new ward is created every year or so with the Highland park 10th ward just a couple of months ago.
ReplyDeleteSorry for the wordiness here- but I'm home sick from work and have a little more time than usual! I've refreshed my memory of some of the below information using wikipedia.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you're right, JPL, that less than half of the latter-day apostles had prior service as general authorities. In fact, until the 1950's, it was rare for them to have prior service. This may have been in part due to the fact that prior to 1941, there were only 11 general authorities other than the First Presidency and the Quorum/Council of the 12: the Church Patriarch, the Presiding Bishopric, and the 7-member First Council of the 70, like our modern Presidency of the 70. (Those were usually callings for life other than sometimes the Presiding Bishopric, and the only movement that usually occurred was within those councils, like when a Presiding Bishopric counselor became the Presiding Bishop.)
Only 2 apostles called before 1951 had already been serving as General Authorities- Abraham H. Cannon (called in 1889) who had been in the First Council of 70, and Sylvester Q. Cannon (ordained an apostle in 1938 and added to the Quorum of 12 the following year), who had been serving as Presiding Bishop. (There were also 3 counselors in the First Presidency who had prior service. One of them, Jedediah M. Grant, had been in the First Council of Seventy- he was ordained an apostle at the time of his calling by Brigham Young but never served in the Quorum of Twelve. The other two, John R. Winder and Charles W. Nibley, had both been Presiding Bishop and both served in the First Presidency without ever being ordained an apostle.)
We could maybe add J. Reuben Clark also- he was called into the First Presidency as a non-apostle in 1933 and later ordained an apostle and given seniority. But he only served in the Quorum of the Twelve during the brief periods when there was no First Presidency after the deaths of Heber J. Grant and George Albert Smith. (Incidentally, 5 of the first 9 prophets had at least one counselor who was not an apostle, although I believe Brigham Young ordained all such counselors when he called them. Most of Joseph Smith's counselors were not apostles.)
Anyway, the position switched in 1951, with the calling of Marion G. Romney as an apostle (he had been serving for 10 years as one of the first Assistants to the Twelve), and after that most apostles had prior service in another calling.
I could make a restatement of your figures and say 6 of the last 35 apostles have not been already serving as General Authorities. It just so happens that 3 are prophets and the last 2 have a good chance at being prophet someday:
Adam S. Bennion (1953)
Howard W. Hunter (1959)
Thomas S. Monson (1963)
Russell M. Nelson (1984)
Dallin H. Oaks (1984)
David A. Bednar (2004)
Someday we will have another prophet who had prior service as a non-apostle General Authority, it could be Elder Holland or Elder Uchtdorf.
Bryce, Also on the Meetinghouse locator map, the new Highland Park Stake boundaries covers half of the Bingham Copper Mine. Just Saying.
ReplyDeleteActually only 5 of the current apostles were first called as General Authorities after the year 2000, Elder Bednar and the last four.
ReplyDeleteBut Elder Bednar was a regional representative and area seventy prior to his. call. Full disclosure: As an avid student of Church history, I was quite surprised by Elder Bednar's call to the apostleship, which was a break in tradition only last seen with the 1984 calls of now-Presidents Nelson and Oaks. From President Ballard through Elder Soares, Elder Bednar is the only one called without prior service asa General Authority.
DeleteSpeaking thereof, since Elder Bednar is on the younger side compared to apostles senior and immediately junior to him, if the aging First Presidency (with President Nelson turning 99 in 8 days and Presidents Oaks and Eyring both over 90), I'd not be shocked to see an additional counselor called to the First Presidency in the near term.
And if that happens, despite Elder Uchtdorf's past role in the First Presidency, Elder Bednar could be the next Gordon B. Hinckley (first called as an additional counselor, then serving in the First Presidency until he himself becomes the prophet).
That being said, I'm sure Elder Uchtdorf will also be in the First Presidency again as well.
President Ballard could be the next president of the Church who was a non-apostle GA, but that seems a little unlikely. He would have to outlive President Oaks who is I believe 4 years younger than him. Elder Cook would also be such, but he would have to outlive Elder Bednar who is 12 years younger.
ReplyDeleteA while ago I found this statistical analysis on the likelihood of each of the current Q15 becoming President of the Church: https://prophetpredict.com/
ReplyDeleteThis of course is subject to change with events like Elder Hollands recent hospitalization, but I think it's a great overview of the next few decades of prophetic leadership.
Thanks, JTB! That's an interesting chart.
ReplyDeleteThe likely prophetic future in this graph (if I'm reading it correctly) is that President Nelson will be the prophet until the summer of 2025, followed by 2 years of President Oaks and 4 of President Holland. Then it is suggested that President Bednar will be prophet from about 2031 to 2043, followed by 2 years of President Stevenson and about 8 of President Soares.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think Elder Uchtdorf's chances are higher than shown here especially given Elder Holland's recent health changes, and given that President Eyring, the only one between them is 7 years older than both of them.
I would suggest in addition that Elder Gong's chances of becoming prophet are higher than 10% and maybe should be up where Elder Uchtdorf's are given that he is less than 2 years older than Elder Stevenson. It's also not hard to imagine Elder Andersen or Elder Rasband outliving Elder Bednar, granted that most of this is just speculation about events many years away.
I would assume that following the current generation (Nelson, Ballard, Oaks, Cook, Holland), we will for a while see Elder Bednar as the Prophet. This is purely speculative, but he seems to be perhaps the healthiest apostle. He also seems to be carrying an overproportional weight in terms of traveling, including internationally, which may be another indication of this. I would not be surprised to see a Hinckley-type tenure out of him, even more so than the model is predicting.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to the Presidency of the Seventy, there are a couple other GA Seventies who I think could reasonably become Apostles. One of my "hottest" picks is Massimo De Feo. Marco Aidukaitis is another.
*health challenges*, I meant
ReplyDeleteOne more comment which ties this talk about apostles with the temples- and then I will do my level best to stop commenting for a while ;-)
ReplyDeleteYesterday morning I dreamed that I had woken up to the news that Elder Holland had passed away. In my dream the opening dates for the Red Cliffs temple were announced the same day. As I've been thinking about this, I'm not sure I agree that the delay has anything to with Elder Holland's health. If it did, wouldn't they also have delayed the re-opening for the original St. George temple?
Fair point. But it's also fair to note that the St. George Temple is historical, and that the last time that the presiding apostle was not specified in a dedication announcement, the temple in question was in Washington DC, and it was President Nelson who presided at the first of 3 sessions (with each of his counselors presiding over the second and third sessions).
DeleteSo I could see the prophet presiding over St. George's first of two sessions, with Elder Holland overseeing the other, which is why I think Elder Holland's health didn't factor into the St. George announcement but may be the factor impacting the delayed opening arrangements for Red Cliffs.
This just in from the Church News: The First Presidency has officially confirmed the details for the October 2023 General Conference, which will consist of 5 unique 2-hour sessions, including a Saturday Evening Session for all members and friends of the Church. Although it says that the Saturday Evening Session will also be 2 hours, since the last several Saturday Evening Sesions have been 1.5 hours and consisted of addresses from four General Authorities or General Officers and a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, I assume that will be the case again next month. My thanks once again to you all.
ReplyDeleteAlthough President Nelson, President Oaks, and Elder Bednar were not general authorities when called to the apostlehip:
ReplyDeletePresident Nelson had been a general officer (in the General Sunday School Presidency) President Oaks had been President of BYU
Elder Bednar was the first President of BYU Idaho.
Thus none of 3 were really outsiders like Elder Adam S. Bennion, Preisdent Howard W. Hunter, and Preident Thomas S. Monson were.
Given the process the First Presidency and Quroum of the Twelve use to call new apostles, I think it very unlikely man outside the group of current general authorities, general officers and BYU presdidents will be called by the Lord in future decades.
Elder Bednar and President Nelson had both also served as regional representatives, and Elder Bednar was among the first area seventies sustained as such, and was still an area seventy when called to the apostleship. Presidents Hunter and Monson and Elder Bennion were also all serving in major assignments on prominent Church committees at the times of their calls, if memory serves me correctly.
DeleteI am not sure why a temple open house would be delayed because 1 apostle is not well. There are 11 others. I would be willing to bet that it is more about maximizing exposure. What a great opportunity for the church to have 2 open houses and dedications spread out over many months. I see this as a missionary opportunity and maximizing church resources. Putting on an open house and dedication is a lot of work and time. St. George is not Northern Utah with millions of members.
ReplyDeleteBut if the one unwell apostle is the first choice to preside at a dedication due to his ties to the area, I don't see why his health wouldn't be a factor. President Nelson has an established history of assigning dedications based on personal connections. That's specifically why Elder Bednar is presiding over the Bentonville dedication later this month, and why Elder Andersen will dedicate the Brasilia temple on the same day. That was explicitly stated in the announcement of those dedications. If it's true for Brasilia and Bentonville,, why wouldn't it also factor into what we've seen with Red Cliffs?
DeleteMy understanding is that the open house committees for both St. George and Red Cliffs were working separately, but with some degree of coordination between the two. So what you said (two open houses over several months) may have been a secondary consideration. The two temples cover entirely different stake clusters, so St. George's status as a "small town" (which may not be fully accurate anymore from what I've heard) is also likely not a determining factor.
Someone was asking earlier about news coming out of Turkiye. Here is exciting, promising good news coming from it's recently reelected President Erdogan about much needed Constitutional Reforms Initiative.
ReplyDelete"Erdogan Announces Initiative for the Adoption of a New Constitution"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/erdogan-announces-initiative-for-the-adoption-of-a-new-constitution/ar-AA1g8ilw?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=071958439b5543648a500508ee121b40&ei=44
It seems in recent months he is changes his policies to kickstart his countries chances of further negociations to become a full member of the European Union. Since it has been a recognized Candidate Country since the 1980s.
Any comments?
My comment is: I don't trust ultra-right leaders who try to facilitate speech for the masses by reducing the solution of problems to a single simple and popular measure, usually based on hatred against minorities. Erdogan is unfortunately a shadow compared to Atatürk, and I am very suspicious of his policies and any 'modernizing' reform initiatives that come from him. But I could be wrong, in case he intends to leave a legacy and a personal mark on the history of his country even changing the profile of the government, now that he no longer needs to run for new elections. I shouldn't be writing this, and I only did so because you asked me to and I couldn't help myself. Thanks
DeleteI am thinking the theory with the Red cliffs Utah temple is that the open house will start after the St. George dedication.
ReplyDeleteConsidering how close St. George is to Las Vegas this makes sense to we.
Elder Monson held what was basically a proto-regional representative call when called to the 12. Elder Oaks was on the other hand a Sunday School teacher. I may post more thoughts later.
Erdogan is wanting a share of the EU market and the EU is pushing for Turkiye to allow its population more freedom in return. I have a feeling even if these freedoms are gained, I can see the government try undermine these freedoms where it can. He's trying to put his foot into two diverging worlds. But politics aside, I hope this will mean additional religious freedom in the long term.
ReplyDelete@Chris D, given his history, Erdogan wanting a new constitution does not bode well for religious freedom in Turkey. He has moved Turkey in an Islamist direction (I want to stress I am not making a criticism of Islam: note that "Islamist" is a political stance; its relation to Islam is similar to the relation Integralism bears to Catholicism, which is to say it is a political philosophy motivated by a desire to make a religion the basis of law, and should not be confused with the religion itself). He kicked most Christian missionaries out of Turkey (and in some cases banned denominations altogether), imprisoned journalists critical of him, and purged the government of anyone who might oppose his actions. While he is *probably* freely elected (though not fairly -- the government used its clout in a myriad of ways to benefit his recent re-election campaign), he is not a friend of religious freedom, at least in the way Latter-day Saints usually mean it. Although his language may sound like that of someone committed to a free and open society, his actions have shown otherwise.
ReplyDeleteAs a more general observation, it is important to realize that in the context of Turkish political discourse, discussions of religious freedom don't necessarily mean what you might think and require a little familiarity with 20th century Turkish history. Ataturk wanted Turkey to be a secular European nation and to mostly abandon Islam, and to that end he banned certain types of overt expression of Islam in public. Most notably, this meant a ban on headscarves, the closure of madrasas, and the translation of the Quran into Turkish (which might sound pro-Islam until you realize that orthodox Muslims view the translation of the Quran into languages other than Islam as a corruption of the text, and his motives for doing this are...debated). With that background, when Turkish political figures discuss freedom of religion what they mean is rolling back Ataturk's reforms (which certainly did restrict the religious freedom of Muslims) in order to allow Islam to be freely practiced; unless explicitly stated otherwise, it is understood that in that context "religious freedom" does not mean freedom of religion writ large for all religions.
--Felix
Perfect Felix! It was something along those lines that I wanted to express, but my English still doesn't allow me to go that far. I have an admiration for Atatürk's story and how he portrayed modern Turkey as a luminary and example for the West itself.
Delete
ReplyDeleteWhen Elder Morris was called, only 5 non-apostle general authorities had been called to the 12, so it would not have yet seemed as unusual as it would today when we have gone 17 years without such happening.
Is it possible a non-BYU president area seventy will be called to the 12 in the future? It is possible, although not that likely. That would seem the most likely non-BYU president, non-general authority, non-general officer to be called to the 12.
Tad R. Callister, who was general Sunday School President from I think 2014-2019 is I believe the only person ever released as a general authority to be a general officer of the Church. Before about 1935 many men were simultaneously general officers of the Church and general authorities. From 1979-about 2004 all male general officers of the Church were simultaneous general authorities.
I believe Elder Ochoa and Elder Corbitt are the only two general officers since called as general authorities.
The original quorum of the 12 in 1836 were all under age 40. Until the 1910s those under 40 were often called. Since about 1920 only Thomas S. Monson was called under 30.
In the 1950s at least 2 apostles were called over age 70. I believe L. Tom Perry was the last apostle called under age 50, and he was 49 when called. Today every living apostle was called to the 12 when in his 50s or 60s.
This pattern might continue in the future.
No emeritized general authority has ever been called as an apostle. Emeritizing started in 1979, before that other than the Presiding Bishopric the expectation was you would be a general authority until you died. In theory an emeritus general authority could be called as an apostle, or one who is 70 but has not yet been emeritized, but that has not been done.
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ReplyDeleteActually, Elder Perry was 51 when he was called as an Apostle. (He had previously served 18 months as an Assistant to the Twelve, a calling he got in October 1972 shortly after turning 50.) Other than that, you are correct, all the apostles called since the 1970s have been in their 50s or 60s.
ReplyDeleteThomas S. Monson was 36 when he was called in 1963, and Boyd K. Packer was 45 when he was called in 1970. The previous example would be Richard L. Evans who was 47 when he was called in 1953, and before that there were 5 apostles in a row in their 40s called in the 1940s- Harold B. Lee, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, Mark E. Petersen and Matthew Cowley.
I believe the 2 most recent apostles (other than Pres. Monson) to be called in their 30s were Joseph Fielding Smith, who was 33 when he was called in 1910, and Stephen L Richards, who was 37 when he was called in 1917. George Albert Smith and David O. McKay were also in their 30s when they were called as apostles, in the first decade of the 1900s. Several apostles called in the 1880s and 1890s were in their 20s, one of them was Heber J. Grant.
I just learned today that there were recently assigned to Dearborn, Michigan a companionship of Arabic-speaking missionaries. If this was ever done before it was many years ago, and may not have been done before. I think there mauly be other parts of metro Detroit, such as Hamtramck, Sterling Heights, and maybe a few others where Arabic speaking missionaries could find people to teach.
ReplyDeleteI do not know if Dearborn Ward does any classes in Arabic as of yet.
That is very exciting news! From what I understand, language missionaries have to be assigned to a language unit, so it's possible there is an Arabic speaking group assigned to the Dearborn ward. I remember hearing how there was a problem with getting Mandarin speaking missionaries in the MDM because there was no Mandarin unit, so the mission president asked for missionaries from Taiwan, who were called as English speaking missionaries, but did a lot of their proselytizing in Mandarin. I encountered so many Arabic speaking people when I was in Sterling Heights, they could be very busy there, especially because those populations are generally Chaldeans and are already Christian.
DeleteThere is no requirement for language missionaries to be part of a language unit. For example, the Germany Berlin Mission has Mandarin-speaking missionaries in the two largest cities in the mission (Berlin and Hamburg), but no Mandarin-speaking units. They would simply "jump in" and teach Mandarin-speaking investigators when another companionship found them, in any unit within those cities and possibly surrounding areas as well. This was before Covid; it's very possible that this eventually included Zoom lessons throughout Germany.
ReplyDeleteThere are also Arabic-speaking missionaries in all three German missions, but no Arabic-speaking units. Generally those companionships are also traveling/Zoom missionaries. I know the Cologne Ward has an Arabic companionship, and I also know a German missionary in the Berlin Mission who served Arabic-speaking.
Generally, Europe is extremely reluctant and therefore underserved with foreign language congregations (that are not designated US military units). I was shocked to learn that there are no foreign language units in any of mainland Europe's (excluding Russia) largest three metropolitan areas: Paris, Madrid, and Rome, although each of these metro areas has at least several hundreds of thousands of migrants who would likely be statistically more receptive than the respective natives of the country.
That's good to hear, thanks for sharing Pascal. I'm glad that that's the case, as it seemed like a very unnecessary bottleneck, particularly in cosmopolitan areas with diverse populations.
DeleteI remember attending the baptism of an Albanian brother in a German branch when I was living in the Kaiserslautern Military Stake. From what I recall there had been several other Albanians that had been baptized around that time. It would be great to continue to expand outreach to those underserved minority groups and build up the church in that way. The Jehovah's Witnesses do an outstanding job of that, and it is something which I have serious holy envy of them for.
Arabic is of course one of the most important world languages. Although most associated with Islam, there are also millions of native Arabic speakers in or from Lebanon and Palestine.
ReplyDeleteI remember meeting in 1981 the first branch preisdent in Haiti, Alexandre Mourra, whose parents immigrated to the Caribbean from Palestine. I also remember Jalal Samaha, a good friend in Araraquara Brazil (during my mission in 1970), who was later a district preident and stake patriarch.
The Church has been quietly growing in the Middle East / North Africa Area. I've heard that Church units, though mostly for workers from elsewhere, also include some local members who are from both Islamic and Christian backgrounds.
I am not sure that Chaldeans would be all that receptive in Sterling Heights. Thry tend to be very attached to the Catholic Church. I did have a Chaldean elders quorum president who had joined the Church with his family in Spain. On the other hand a large percentage of the Chaldeans are fluent in English.
ReplyDeleteIn the case of the Japanese mission in Hawaii almost all their convers were youth who were functional in English. However having missionaries able to deal with parents in Japanese may have made the parents more willing to allow teaching of the children.
There are lots of pluses and minuses to having a language specific unit. I can understand why specific language wards and branches are not all that common.
Not just Europe, I can list a number of examples in the U.S. of language speaking missionaries in other language units. When there's not enough to crate/support their own language unit, some stakes/communities would have a focus ward for that language (ie. an english-speaking ward may take in spanish speakers of neighboring wards, or a Marshallese speakers from multiple stakes...). Language speakers within that ward may have their own adult classes and either have interpreters or have their own sacrament meeting in a separate room.
ReplyDeleteLanguage speaking missionaries would be called to help support these groups.
Groups within wards are especially useful in areas where there's lack of sufficient language speakers to create and support their own branch. I've also seen focus wards for YSA/SA as well, again where there's not enough to have their own branch/ward, respectively. Sometimes it's the smaller ward that gets the focus group, reducing the need for boundary realignments (It's not unusual to see families go less active in realignments).
From a recently posted article on the Church News website, it looks like from the quote, the Luanda Angola Stake may soon split.
ReplyDelete" ‘God has a plan for Angola:’ Gospel quickly spreading throughout African nation
The country’s first chapel is on the way, the stake may soon split and more members are receiving temple blessings
By Mary Richards 4 Sept 2023, 8:00 AM MDT"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/global/2023/9/4/23854697/angola-baptisms-growth-gospel-quickly-spreading-africa
Very excited to hear about Angola. The Mission president there was my stake president when I was in the Ogden YSA 1st stake back in my undergrad days. He has a truly remarkable passion for missionary work and I am excited to hear he and his wife are fully embracing the concept of Church planting. Likely, having a Church-built meetinghouse will help with creating more units. Luanda has some of the most expensive real estate in the world, hence the logistic of meeting places may have been a real challenge holding unit growth back.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the Brazil Porto Alegre South Mission had 222 baptisms last month, which is the second time this year they have broken their all-time monthly record. They might do that a few more times before the year is over based on what I have been hearing from my missionary contact there.
ReplyDeleteHow's everywhere else doing with four months left in the year? Our ward is having its fourth convert baptism of the year this Saturday, which isn't an awful tally (about middle of the pack for Germany this year based on what I've heard).
I was going to post a link to the article on Church growth in Angola. In the article they mention that there are currently serving missionaries in Angola where they were baptized by missionaries who are still serving.
ReplyDeleteI do wonder why they choose to go to the Johanesburg Temple and not the Kinshasa,Temple. My initial thought is Kinshasa would be easier to get to.
The church released the site location of the Lethbridge Alberta Temple as well as the exterior rendering of the Austin Texas Temple today. Hopefully this means a groundbreaking is in the works, although it does seem like it can take a long while to get from site location to exterior rendering to groundbreaking sometimes.
ReplyDeletehttps://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/location-of-lethbridge-alberta-temple-announced
The news of the growth of the Church in Angola is the top of a series of curious events that occur in that country.
ReplyDeleteThe evangelization of Angola was carried out mainly by megachurches in Brazil, especially the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God, a corruption that has been trying to imitate the true Church of Jesus Christ for many years (they use "Jesus Christ is the Lord" in their doorposts to copy the temples).
This church and the others that emerged from it are corrupt and Machiavellian institutions that misrepresent Christianity and are closely linked with President Bolsonaro's fame among 'unenlightened' conservatives. They have the third largest national TV network in Brazil and their world headquarters is called "Salomon's Temple", a mixture of a church and an Israeli theme park, which in no way resembles the ancient temple of Israel due to its fussiness.
It so happens that, in order to finance this megachurch, not only the unwary of Brazil were deceived, but many Angolan brothers, whose tithe was diverted to the Brazilian headquarters, until the Justice of Angola confirmed the seizure of the assets of that church by the association of native pastors who, angry with this situation, they decided to break with the headquarters of the church and legally create a local leadership, causing gigantic damage to their 'prophet', Edir Macedo.
As bad as they are, these false leaders end up creating fertile soil for Christianity, taking the marginalized population away from the animist traditions of their forebears. They show that even the Opposer can have a part in spreading the true gospel of Christ when in his pride he does not see the thwarting of his own plan.
The interesting thing about the Lethbridge Temple is it's 45, 000 sq feet whereas the Calgary Temple is 33,000 sq feet, making the Lethbridge Temple the second largest in the province. I look forward to their design
ReplyDeleteJPL,
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this is the reason: For citizens of Angola, South Africa is Visa Free (if stay is less than 30 days). DRC requires visa.
Angola was a Portuguese colony for nearly 500 years and was generlly Catholic (mixed with tribal religions). I am grateful for the penetration the Church has in Africa since Evangelical and other Churches have come in. By the way, I don't think we should be criticizing other faiths even if we think they are corrupt.
ReplyDeleteI apologize for disagreeing, but the case is that here in Brazil we had in these pastors figures similar to Cardinal Richelieu in his time. Their influence on the government and especially the impact on the death toll due to their preaching to keep churches open during the pandemic (in order not to lose tithe income) is unprecedented and has hurt the principle of the secular state several times. And we know what happens when government and church come together! Look for videos about the glossolalia promoted by the then First Lady in the Congress building, when she managed to nominate a pastor friend to the Supreme Court, and you will see that the thing here is very dangerous...
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DeleteThere were Christians in what is now Angola before there were Christians in Brazil. The Portuguese connected with the Kingdom of Congo in the north of what is now Angola in the 1480s I believe. I believe there were Catholic missionaries baptizing people there by 1488. There is lots of Catholic history there.
ReplyDeleteI suspect the visa rules explain the temple situation.
Update on St. George Utah Temple Open House. Each Stake in the temple district has been asked to provide 1400 volunteers. Two weeks ago they only had 30% of needed volunteers. A few days ago during the committee meeting with the Stake Presidents it was suggested that they ask the other Stakes in the Red Cliffs Temple district to help. Prior to the announcement of the St. George open house, volunteers were already being asked to help clean the temple and get ready for the open house that was not yet announced. I live in the Red Cliffs Temple District. We have not yet been asked for volunteers for our eventual open house. My point? It would be extremely difficult to run 2 open houses in St. George simultaneously. Yesterday, I had a Stake President reach out to me and ask if my family could help their Stake meet the goal of 1400 volunteers. I doubt that Elder Holland has anything to do with the Red Cliffs Open house not yet being announced.
ReplyDeleteNephi, as I stated above, President Nelson has honored and recognized apostles' personal ties to temple areas. So it wouldn't shock me if Elder Holland's situation was a considered factor. But that aside, the Church Temples site noted just today that construction (and not just major construction, but all construction) is completed. The First Presidency may have been waiting for that. So I think on Monday, the Red Cliffs arrangements will be announced. If that happens, I think the dedication will be set for April of next year.
Delete"TEMPLES
ReplyDeleteSee inside the newly renovated St. George Utah Temple as media, special-guest tours begin
The house of the Lord is the first of the pioneer-era temples to be completed after President Nelson called for restoration efforts that began in 2019
By Scott Taylor 6 Sept 2023, 10:31 AM MDT"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2023/9/6/23861287/inside-renovated-st-george-utah-temple-media-day
While there was a Portuguese Colony of Angola for a long time, for most of that time it was much less extensive than the modern nation. It mainly covered an area that did not stretch all that far from Luanda in any direction.
ReplyDeleteIn the north was the Kingdom of Kongo, which was very heavily influenced by the Portuguese and where I believe before 1500 the rulers converted to Christianity.
In the interior of Angola and in the south the Portuguese did not come to control the area until the late 19th-century.
Angola suffered long term wars from roughly 1965 or earlier, first with an attempt to drive out the Pirtugues and then with various warring factions there.
I am hoping it will not be too long until Angola gets a temple, but I do not expect a temple announced anytime super soon.
I'm curious, given the post here about Hong Kong and its lowest number of wards/stakes/activity in decades, how the environment fares for a temple in Shanghai. I realize such a temple likely doesn't exist in any form, but it seems to me that the Shanghai temple would almost exclusively have to be used for live ordinances and very rare instances of proxy ordinances given the low activity rates in Hong Kong (I'm assuming that Shanghai is even worse off, which I think is a very fair assumption).
ReplyDeleteI know Matt hasn't been on a while, but I imagine there are likely areas that are leading indicators of growth in other areas - bellwether areas, so to speak. For mainland China, I would assume Hong Kong would be a good bellwether (and a necessary one, given the lack of ability to track numbers in mainland China).
But other areas may exist that perform well statistically as bellwether areas for other areas. For example, Mexico may be a bellwether for Honduras/Guatemala. Given the church's earlier entry into Mexico, we could see patterns that emerge in Mexico that will eventually come forward in similar countries where the church is less developed. And to a lesser extent, I would assume countries like Mexico would be a better predictor of future growth in Africa than countries in Europe or Asia. They share many of the same characteristics - developing countries, a strong Christian missionary presence, relative lack of internet access and education, conservative values, a tendency to treat religion as tradition (in west Africa in particular, it is not uncommon at all for people to join 4-5 religions and claim them all, which is completely opposite of the mentality of Americans who generally feel they need to claim one).
This just in from the Newsroom:
ReplyDeletehttps://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/sacred-hymnbook-to-help-unite-uplift-latter-day-saints-of-all-ages-worldwide
My analysis:
https://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com/2023/09/breaking-news-consolidated-collection.html
My thanks once again to you all.
The news release I shared above was deleted not long after I submitted my comment about it. It may have been released prematurely. Just wanted to note that.
DeletePresident Nelson turns 99 years old today! I wonder if he'll live to see the Salt Lake rededication in (hopefully) three years?
ReplyDeleteReliglang, it was mentioned in an earlier thread that the open house for the Salt Lake Temple may reportedly be 12-18 months, per information from the Temple Department. So if construction does wrap up in 2026, and the open house is that long, the earliest the dedication could take place is sometime in 2028.
DeleteThat being said, public statements from President Nelson, his wife, and his apostolic colleagues indicate that, despite his recent balance issues (for which he uses a walker or wheelchair when needed), he still has the energy, mental sharpness, and vigor of someone 20 or 30 years younger than his 99 years. So I think he will be around to see both the rededication of the Sat Lake Temple in 2027 or 2028 and also likely the 200th anniversary of the Church (with the bicentennial General Conference occurring on April 6 and 7).
The Prophet turns 99 today on 9-9! (That's pretty cool.)
ReplyDeleteJames (the james that posted Sep 7 in the AM),
ReplyDeleteJust because there's growth/decline in one area doesn't constitute a growth decline in another, even in the same region.
1) Politics can be different
Hong Kong is under "one county, two systems" until 2047 under its 1997 handover agreement (although mainland has made violations in recent years). Shanghai does not the same religious freedom that Hong Kong has. The church has made an agreement for a unique policy for mainland China (which I'll send a link below). I'm not sure how it will affect the Church and the temple, but gradual loosing of freedoms which had occurred in recent decades has seemed to reverse itself since Shanghai's announcement.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/China?lang=eng
Mongolia has more religious freedom that its much larger neighbors and consequently has as many members, if not more, than China or Russia.
2) There can be substantial local growth differences.
I live in Arkansas which had the fastest growing membership growth per capita among US States last year. Much of that growth was in what use to be the Fort Smith Stake (which had covered Western Arkansas/Eastern Oklahoma) which Elder Bednar was Stake President in 1990. What use to be the Ft Smith stake in 1990 is now 4 stakes, just the Arkansas side alone, with two of these large enough to split on their own.
Yet east of the US 67 corridor (which covers nearly half the state's area) has not seen any growth in congregations since 1990. On this side of the state, only the Paragould Branch was created (2006); while at the same time, the Blytheville Ward is now a branch, and units that use to exist are no longer (ie. Crossett, Fordyce, Helena, Forest City...).
Matt has been great for the last several years of updating this. I of course don't want anything to happen to matt, but will this page continue to update with new releases if he's unable to continue to keep this page going?
ReplyDeleteElder Holland has been released from the hospital (after having been admitted just after his wife's funeral), and he is convalescing at home and is hoping to actively resume his apostolic ministry as his situation allows:
ReplyDeletehttps://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-holland-recuperating-home
My thanks once again to you all.
The articlre on the hymnbook disappeared, but before it did, LDS Daily published it. Here are some highlights.
ReplyDelete450-500 hymns.
No Children's Songbook but those will be included with the hymns.
Digital release of at least some in May 2024.
First Presidency approved title: Hymns for Home and Church.
Other information gleaned from other sources has the recordings being much better than for the 1985 book, other things are being done to help people learn them, including melody-only recordings.
First four languages come out in print form in 2026, based on the other information the holders in the buildings may have to be retrofitted to accomodate a thicker book.
I do not think growth trends in Mexico tell us anything about future growth in say DR Congo or Nigeria.
ReplyDeleteTo understand the situation in North-west Arkansas, you have to understand since 1990 it has been on of the fastest growing areas in the US period. This has been fueled by people moving there, which is very different from growth from local baptisms, although the real picture is often complex. I suspect there is a good number of convert baptisms in north-west Arkansas, in part because people uprooted from existing networks are often easier to convert.
One thing that taught me to avoid assumptions was reading the bio of Elder and Sister Corbitt published when he was called as azgeneral authority seventy. I knew she had been born in the same part of New Jersey as they lived in from their bio published when they were called to be mission leaders. I think I just at some level assumed they were vaguely on the model of Al Jackson and his wife, Al was a politician in Utah who was an African-American from the DC area, where he had been a bishop, and his wife was originally from Bountiful. She was a lifelong church member and I assumed the sane for Sister Corbitt. Sister Corbitt joined the Church actually at more or less the same age as Elder Corbitt, he was baptized on his 18th birthday after his mom, but before his step-dad.
While Sister Corbitt's mom joined the Church her Dad never did. In fact the first sealing Elder Corbitt performed as a general authority was of his wife and her sister to her parents.
Sister Corbitt I believe joined the Church in California. At least she went on her mission from there.
I once hasld a stake president who joined the Church while serving in the army in Vietnam.
Back to the issue of growth trends in Africa. In Latin America the Church was staffed and supported largely by American missionaries. In Africa the Church in many countries has almost never had young American missionaries serving. I believe this is the case in both DR Congo and in Nigeria.
In Nigeria and Ghana the Church exists because of locals who learned about it and built it up for in some cases 2 decades or more before baptism. Although Ghana also benefited from Emanuel Abu Kissi returning from medical studies in Britain and being baptized. I think he came back in 1979.
In Ivory Coast and DR Congo the Church very much benefitted from Expatriates who joined the Church in various European countries returning. Well, on of the key couples in Ivory Coast was an Ivorian man and his German wife.
Mozambique is a cross section. There the key figure, Chico Mapemda, joins the Church while in East Germany studying the ways of socialism. Then he has to come back when Germany is reunited. At that point he shares the gospel with his father-in-law Francisco Dique Sousa, also he shares it with the husband of one of his wife's sisters, whose name escapes me. The 3 of them then orchestrate a situation so that when the missionaries arrive in Beira there are hundreds waiting to be baptized.
In Bulawayo Zimbabwe where currently there are 2 stakes. There are plans to create a third stake hopefully by the end of this year where some wards will be split to create additional wards and one or two branches will be advanced to wards. I hear plans to create a fifth stake in Harare, Zimbabwe are at an advanced stage, also before the end of this year. The Mutare Zimbabwe District is also preparing for stake status initially this year as well. So a total of 3 additional stakes in Zimbabwe are currently under consideration by the end of this year or within the first half of 2024.
ReplyDeleteWhy no comments on Hong Kong? Losing 2 stakes where there were only 6 stakes to begin with. Two reason is that members are doing what the population at large are doing: emigrating. With the vague and draconian national security laws, less opportunities, reduction in freedom of the press, association and assembly more younger and educated Hong Kongers are going to UK, USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Singapore, Taiwan and other countries. So since the umbrella revolution in 2015 over 500,000 have left. UK alone has taken in 140,000.
ReplyDeleteDo we not like to talk about decline in church populations?