@Johnathan Reese Whiting, to answer your question. 4 of the deleted comments were mine. I was just inquiring about 3 topics as a sideline.
1st, I was asking if anyone knew when the "Kaiserslautern Germany Military Stake" (505137) was renamed the "Kaiserslautern Germany Stake" only, eliminating the word "Military".
2nd post, was a self answer to 1st. It may have been on February 23rd, 2020.
"...KAISERSLAUTERN GERMANY STAKE: (Feb. 23, 2020) President — Darrell M Zaugg, 48, psychiatrist, family physician, United States Air Force; succeeding Joshua D. Adams; wife, Melanie JoMel Gamble Zaugg. Counselors — Aaron Lawrence Harris, 45, chief administrative officer, Landstuhl Regional Medical Center; wife, Jennica Audra Thuet Harris. Trek Craige Potter, 41, cyber operator, United States Air Force; wife, Danielle Marie Sorensen Potter."
3rd post, was regarding the new boundary changes mentioned Friday on the church's official Classic Maps, when logged into site. Depending on the distance zooming in/out of the map, along with the new "multi-stake (best i can call them) dark blue boundaries marked. I was also commenting/inquiring about the new red color boundary for the 6 previous North America church areas. There is a new red color boundary marking 4 "new" North America Areas. 1st the Utah, North America West and parts of Central and Southwest Areas under 1 Area of unknown name but red color boundary, minus the northern neighboring provinces of Canada. 2nd, a new smaller North America Central area with unknown name. 3rd, a merged North America Southeast and remaining parts of Southwest. 4th, a North America Northeast, unknown if matches old area. All 4 minus Canada Provinces but including Alaska. all with red color borders. Any comments? or if the Church Maps site was hacked? Today, I am having trouble loading those boundaries on the site. I'm not sure what layers I used yesterday to view the lines.
4th post of mine, was inquiry about when the "Queens Creek Arizona Chandler Heights Stake" was renamed the "Queens Creek Arizona Seville Stake". I can't find any record of the change date. And I don't have access to the CDOL. Any thoughts?
Thank you. I didn't receive any thoughts or feedback. So I deleted them due to no interest.
Chris, so it appears that there are now only 4 areas in the US, and that Canada is in its own area. But since you can't load that information today, maybe there's no change from the original 6 North American areas, with Canada included in 3 of them. A new African Central Area was announced to begin August 1, I believe, but I haven't seen any announcement for other Area changes. Is that right?
@Ray, correct. I thought I was the only one who saw the change..although the normal area changes are on August 1st. And the First presidency recently published the 22 Area Presidencies to begin 08/01. So, I am doubly confused about the new Red boundaries for the 4 USA Areas. and the dark Blue "Multi-Stake (like old 3 Stake Regions from 70's-80's) boundaries marked.
Chris, FWIW, I highly doubt that the First Presidency would have called 18 men to serve in area presidencies in the US and Canada in 6 area presidencies if there were only 4 areas in North America now. I took some time earlier this month to analyze those changes by GA Seventy and by presidency. According to some of the information I compiled, the North America Central Area presidency has retained the same Area President and First Counselor (S. Gifford Nielsen and Chi Hong (Sam) Wong) and a new Second Counselor has been called (Arnulfo Valenzuela, who returns to Church headquarters following several years abroad in the Mexico Area Presidency).
In the North America Northeast Area, Randall K. Bennett remains the Area President. His former First Counselor, Allen D. Haynie, has been reassigned as First Counselor in the South America South Area. His former Second Counselor, W. Mark Bassett, now serves as First Counselor, and John A. McCune, who has been serving in other capacities at Church headquarters, will now serve as Second Counselor.
For the North America Southeast Area, James B. Martino and Vern P. Stanfill continue their service as Area President and First Counselor respectively, but current Second Counselor Hugo Montoya has been reassigned as Second Cousnelor in the Mexico Area, and Marcos A. Aidukatis, who is returning to Church headquarters after serving in the Brazil Area Presidency since 2014, will serve as Second Counselor.
For the North America Southwest Area, Paul B. Pieiper continues as Area President. His First Counselor, Adrian Ochoa, has been released, and his current Second Counselor, Kyle S. McKay, will succeed him as the new First Counselor. Evan A. Schmutz returns to Church headquarters after serving for several years in the Philippines Area Presidency.
The North America West Area presidency remains almost intact, with Kevin W. Pearson and Scott D. Whiting continuing as President and First Counselor. Current Second Counselor Jörg Klebingat has been reassigned as Second Counselor in the Africa West Area Presidency, and Elder Ruben V. Alliaud will serve as Second Counselor in in the North America West Area presidency.
Similarly, the Utah Area presidency remains largely unchanged with Craig C. Christensen and Walter F. Gonzalez continuing as Area President and Second Counselor respectively, while First Counselor Randy D. Funk has been reassigned as First Counselor in the Middle East/Africa North Area presidency. Mark A. Bragg, who returns to Church headquarters after serving in the South America South Area Presidency since August 2016.
Above and beyond that, I mentioned in this thread or another one here on this blog that there are discrepancies between the official list of area seventies put out by the Church and the records I had of the same. Based on your report, Chris, it seems entirely possible that those discrepancies are due to that list aligning with the four areas shown on the maps of those regions. But until a First Presidency announcement clarifies that there are now only 4 areas in the United States, I'm going to assume that the maps and the list in question are incorrect and that 6 areas are still in operation in North America. Hope this information helps.
Also, Chris, if I might mention something else: I don't know the situations or availabilities of other readers of this blog, but I for one do not always opt to be notified of follow-up comments on posts here to which I have contributed comments. So I am reliant on the checks I can make here when I can make them (which only happens 3-4 times per day on a good day). My worry is that you may be assuming no interest in your comments after no replies are posted to it within a few hours, when it may simply be the case that others are not aware of your comments, and you interpret the lack of reply as a lack of interest when it may just be a lack of ability of readeers of this blog and its' threads to read your comments in a timely manner.
In the spirit of one who is very interested in what you have to say, may I make a suggestion? Instead of removing your comments a few hours after you post them, could you please wait to do so for at least 24-36 hours after they are published here? A longer period might be more appropriate, but I think waiting a day or a day and a half will give you a better opportunity to determine whether or not people are responding to your comments.
Just to clue you in a little on my personal schedule, I am a late-night owl who only first gets up for the day by around noon. And it is not usually until an hour or two later before I can even consider checking the Church Growth blog for additional comments on the latest threads for the first time on any given day.
And based on some of your comments, I've had to do some research to formulate the best response. All of that takes time, during which you may be assuming no interest in your thoughts, when it may just be a delay in finding information to formulate a good response to your feedback, or the fact that the comments are deleted within hours after they are posted, well before some of us (like myself) have even been able to check this blog for the first time on any given day.
Since you are the one leaving the comments, it's your call when and under what conditions they are deleted. But instead of lack of interest, it may be due to a lack of availability, or a lack of sufficient information to adequtely respond to that feedback, that there has been a delay in responding to your feedback. If it isn't too much to ask, could you please leave your comments intact for at least 24-36 hours (perhaps longer if you feel that's reasonable) after you post them here before you jump to the assumption that there is no interest? That would help me personally a lot, and I know it would probably help others as well. Thanks.
I second that. I enjoy reading your comments whether of not I personally am able to answer them, and sometimes it takes the other guys (and gals) a bit to find the answers you're looking for.
Just because a comment or question does not get a direct response does not mean it was invalid. That is like uttering a petition to God, receiving "no answer", and surmising that He did not care, did not hear it, or worse yet, does not exist. All three are likely wrong conclusions but you need some patience. Please let your comments linger and thanks for reviving them. Sometimes the best audience of any query is he who asks it, which at minimum enriches that person. But probably others, too.
@Chris I checked on CDOL, and no such stake (either the Queen Creek Chandler Heights or Queen Creek Seville) exists. However, there is a Gilbert Arizona Seville Stake, if that is what you are referring to.
Johnathan and Eduardo, thanks for your latest comments here. One of the things I love most about this blog is how we can build and expand on topics under discussion. Unfortunately, when comments are deleted prematurely under incorrect assumptions, that can't happen as fully. So, Chris, through these latest comments, I hope you know how much your feedback in particular is appreciated here. But if none of us are aware there are such comments to respond to, how can we possibly respond to them? I can count on one hand the number of comments I have made that I've wound up deleting on this blog. Almost all of those deletions are due to unintentional duplication of the most recent comments. I will also occassionally delete comments if subsequent comments on any thread make such comments irrelevant, but those are exceptions. So, Chris, leaving your comments intact for a more lengthy period time will greatly enhance the discussions here. Thanks again.
Chris, to add to the information in Unknown's latest comment, I did some checking as well. And the Church of Jesus Christ Temples site's page for the Gilbert Arizona Temple district shows the Queen Creek Arizona Seville Stake, with no record of a Gilbert Arizona Seville Stake:
Probably another in the series of examples where the right hand is not aware of what the left hand is doing. I'd think the Church's Boundary and Leadership Change Committee would be responsbile for ensuring that such information is accurate, but that's just my opinion here. Hope this information, such as it is, is helpful.
Matt, I accidentally erased an earlier comment. I had asked how you defined the percentage of a country's population that had been "reached" by the Church. Does it refer to distance from a ward or branch, or something else? Reed. PS. Keep up the great work. It is tremendous!
Matt, I accidentally erased an earlier comment. I had asked how you defined the percentage of a country's population that had been "reached" by the Church. Does it refer to distance from a ward or branch, or something else? Reed. PS. Keep up the great work. It is tremendous!
@Unknown and James, Thamk you for correcting me. I apologize, while retyping the message from Saturday afternoon after deleting prematurely. I had gotten the names Queen Creek and Gilbert Arizona mixed up. Thank you for the correction. I must have misinformed Rick on his site also when i sent him an email about the change Saturday afternoon. and he changed also.
For further clarification, the Stake #544116, currently called "Gilbert Arizona Seville" was organized on February 17, 2008. Was published in Church News online 06/21/2008. And 2013 Church Almanac page 332.
And my comments deleted were when I was bloviating and wishing a pox upon heathens and mealy mouth cyber trolls. Those were not removed by me, by the way, because I think I meant everything I shared. I don't like erasing my comments, even the rants, tirades, and screeds. But, each admin must run his/her site as they see fit, I get it.
Will there be another 8 temples announced this October 2020? Seems less likely now, huh?
The Church needs to catch up with 7th Day Ads in Belize. Growth in Nicaragua looks encouraging, better than longer term countries Panama and Costa Rica.
Does anybody know if Central American countries use a lot of anti-malaria drugs? This could help them with COVID-19 developments, hopefully.
Mexico may have 1.5 million members this year.
Growth is really unique right now during house sequestrations and work shut downs.
Eduardo, although the first two sets of temple announcements saw 19 new temples, the other 3 sets of temple announcements made by President Nelson have each seen 8 temples announced.I have heard on good authority that President Nelson's hope is to have 300 temples announced by 2025, which won't happen if he puts a hiatus on temple announcements. After the temples he nnounced in April, there were 43 in the queue of announced temples. 1 other has since had a groundbreaking, and the groundbreakings for 4 more temples have been announced. That will take the queue of announced temples down to 38. And based on what Elder Bednar said last conference, aside from the 5 for which groundbreakings have taken place or will take place, 13 other temples will have their groundbreakings this year. That means by the end of this year, assuming no other temples are announced in October, the queue of announced temples would then go down to 25 total. Everything I have heard on my end points to the notion that President Nelson wants to keep the queue of announced temple at around a total of 35, and that he will be doing more to clear the queue between each General Conference, and 8 seems to be the magic number for now as far as the average number of temples he will continue to announce per conference. Based on all I have laid out here, I am also curious to know why you feel that the announcement of more temples in October is less likely. On what basis are you making that assumption? I fully and firmly believe that the days where a prophet puts a hiatus on temple announcements are done. Any light you can shed on the reasoing for your comment would be appreciated. Thank you.
Also, on another note, in the comments of a video message from the Philippines Area Presidency on Facebook over the weekend, one member in the area asked if the Alabang Philippines Temple groundbreaking took place as scheduled on Saturday May 2. The reply from the area president, Elder Evan A. Schmutz, in response was that the First Presidency had asked that that temple groundbreaking be delayed due to current restrictions put in place by political leaders in the Philippines. The groundbreaking for that temple has been tentatively rescheduled for Saturday June 6, one week after the groundbreaking is held for the Layton Utah Temple, and one week before the groundbreaking occurs for the Auckland New Zealand Temple. Hope this information is helpful to all who read it. Thanks.
Interesting the Pacific Area leadership said something, as Alabang is under the Philippines area.
The big changes related to Church organization as far as callings go will allow more to serve in the temple, both as patron and worker. That will in turn help move temples to be filled to capacity and a new one announced in another place between that and another existing temple.
When the temples reopen, expect a major surge that will likely last a few months at least with full sessions for endowments many times, and lines waiting to do other ordinances. While FamilySearch has put all card and name expirations on hold, stories are also reaching me of many going in and finding even more names than ever. One hint for a name on Family Tree can lead to 50 names not known of before and those names almost always needing work, many times all the ordinances. Millions may have been found in the last six weeks and so far, so the need is becoming more acute to go once things open up, and more temples in the future will only aid in reducing the backlog that already has existed for many years. Some names remain with one or more ordinances left to do, some for over 5 years now.
James Anderson, I'm confused. Insofar as I am aware, no one on this thread mentioned the Pacific Area Presidency in relation to the Alabang Philippines Temple. I had mentioned the comment from Philippines Area President Elder Evan A. Schmutz on the matter, and that the request to postpone the groundbreaking had been made by the First Presidency, but I don't see any other comments on this thread that mention the Pacific Area Presidency at all. To what were you referring? Thanks.
Unless, of course, you somehow confused my mention that the Alabang Philippines groundbreaking would take place on the Saturday between the Layton Utah and Auckland New Zealand Temple groundbreakings to mean that the Pacific Area Presidency said something about the rescheduling for the Alabang temple. Please let me know either way. Thanks.
James and Eduardo, I will share with you some information that my mother (who is an Ordinance Worker in the Vernal Temple) heard last year. She heard from the Temple Presidency that Elder Kevin R. Duncan had said that President Nelson is planning on announcing 18-20 temples each year for the next 10 years. So, that would put the number of temples operating, under construction, or announced at well over 300. Sounds like the information that James has heard is very similar. So, far the First Presidency is keeping up that pace.
JMR, thanks for that information. Did your mother hear that before or after last October's General Conference? If it was after, then I'd assume that we have a higher number of announced temples coming down the pike for the next General Conference. In 2018, President Nelson announced 19 new temples. Last year, he announced a total of 16. That's a grand total of 35 for two years, which averages out to 17.5 each year. I wonder if he opted to announce a lower number the last few conferences due to the focus on other major announcements. I'd assume, then, that he could announce 8-12 for the next several conferences. Thanks for that corroborating information.
A native Portuguese member in my U.S. ward visited the Lisbon Temple shortly after its dedication and was excited by reports from friends there. They said a Seventy had told them about a meeting in Salt Lake, where Pres. Nelson said that future temples would eventually number about two thousand. No time frame was mentioned, as far as I know.
I know this is a third-hand anecdote, and the "two thousand" reference could have actually been a different number entirely. But the trend line of anticipated rapid growth in temple building thrills all of us who love the temple, and a simple extrapolation shows that providing all ordinances for all of Heavenly Father's children who ever live on earth will require a massive effort. Let the cheering begin!
Here's an interesting quote (of BYU President Merrill J. Bateman quoting Brigham Young in the year 2,000):
" In fact, President Brigham Young said:
To accomplish this work there will have to be not only one temple but thousands of them, and thousands and tens of thousands of men and women will go into those temples and officiate for people who have lived as far back as the Lord shall reveal. [JD 3:372]
For many years I thought President Young’s statement would be fulfilled in the Millennium. Maybe it will, but it is incredible that we are living in the day when it has become apparent that thousands of temples will dot the earth. It is quite possible that there will be a thousand or more temples by the year 2025, with thousands more before you students pass through the veil. At the end of this year there will be at least 100 dedicated temples. If 36 temples per year were built for the succeeding 25 years, there would be one thousand temples. That number is quite reasonable, considering there will be 35 or more temples dedicated this year."
I would love to see 8 or more new temples announced this fall, but I fear that this pandemic has put a nasty wrench in the works. Temple dedications are certainly being postponed. It would be great for many more members' spirits if new temples were to be announced by the Prophet, in a time of devasting illness, stress, and economic duress. A vaccine might be needed before temple or even church activity is acceptable again. Maybe that view is too pessimistic, but huge numbers of temple workers are elderly... Maybe the older members can do their own meetings and sessions. I welcome as many temples as possible, even mobile ones on boats and planes. Why not train cars and long coach buses or trailers? That would de sweet to drive and operate one of those. And, gas and diesel may be really cheap for a long time.
I doubt the Prophet will postpone announcements this October, just for the simple fact that any Temples announced will be for years down the road, anticipating that the pandemic will conclude long before then.
Eduardo, I understand why you said what you did, but I do think your viewpoint might indeed be too pessimistic. when COVID-19 first had a wide-spread impact, many at that time voiced their opinions that the April General Conference would either be rescheduled or canceled as a result of the pandemic. The Church adapted to that perfectly. Many also said that major developments, including temple announcements, might not occur, but the conference was one of the most doctrinally-rich ones the Church has experienced in a long time, partly because of so many landmark announcements and developments. If anyone had told me in the days leading up to that weekend that temples would be announced in both the UAE and mainland China, I would have dismissed it as impossible. But President Nelson introduced a new Church symmbol, presented the first new Church proclamation since 1995, led a worldwide assembly with the Hosanna Shout (which was something no one could have predicted) and announced 8 temples.
Above and beyond that, we heard Elder Bednar announce that the Church will break ground on 18 temples this year. As far as what you said about the queue of announced temples, you are technically correct that COVID-19 may impact the queue. But only 3 temples were anticipated to be dedicated this year: Durban South Africa, Rio de Janeiro Brazil, and Winnipeg Manitoba. Durban's dedication went ahead as scheduled; the temple in Winnipeg will be dedicated in November (which shouldn't be a problem, given the fact that the region it will serve is comparatively smaller), and Rio will be dedicated once large public gatherings are held.
Similarly, only 3 temples were anticipated to be rededicated at some point this year: Washington DC, Tokyo Japan, and Mesa Arizona. Barring anything unexpected, the DC Temple will be dedicated before the end of this year so as to not have its' opening interfere with the timing of the next US presidential inauguration. There might be a delay in rededicating both Tokyo and Mesa (probably moreso with the former than the latter), but it wouldn't be problematic for the Church to hold off on rededicating either or both of those.
As far as the future queue being log-jammed, I'd remind you of one thing in particular: During the Rome Italy Temple dedication, President Nelson talked about the blessing of having all living apostles in attendance thereat. He said that he hoped they would take their experiences of being together in Rome along with them in their continued global ministry efforts.
Since that time, we have seen him ask every apostle (with the exception of Elder Stevenson) to personally oversee a dedication or rededication of a temple. And the Church often has two apostles traveling together. The reaons I mention that is that since the apostles are commissioned to assist the prophet as they are assinged to do so, if a queue of completed temples does happen to build up, the apostles could be sent out two-by-two, or even one-by-one. It was not all that uncommon during the Hinckley-era building boom for two temples to be dedicated on the same day. So I have no doubt that could happen again, with two sets of apostles going to two different locations to dedicate two temples at the same time.
Above and beyond that, the queue of temples awaiting a dedication will only really build up if COVID-19 conditions continue for the next 18-24 months, which I am hard-pressed to believe will be the case. Aside from the 3 temples that have had or will have their dedications in 2020, there are currently only 5 or 6 temples anticipated to be completed next year, and 3-5 others for which a dedication is anticipated in 2022. So a built-up queue of completed temples would likely only factor in during 2023 at earliest.
It is easy to look at the world and surmise that any world condition would preclude temple announcements. But as the scriptures remind us, with God, nothing is impossible. No matter what metric you're looking at (whether it's the 85 temples mentioned in 2017 by Elder William R. Walker as being on track for announcement within the 15 years following that statement; or the ten-fold increase for which some have said that is President Nelson's endgame goal, or whether it's ensuring that the Church will have 300 temples announced by or before 2025), the only way any of those ambitious goals can be met is if there are regular announcements of new temples every six months, and massive efforts to clear the queue of announced temples between each General Conference.
I hope my extensive reply here is taken in the same spirit in which it is offered. Anyone here certainly has a right to their own opinions, but there have been plenty of comments on this blog alone to the effect that, after each General Conference in which new temples are announced, there could not possibly be more new temples announced the next go-round. And every time, new temples have indeed been announced, with no exceptions in any of the 5 General Conferences we have had thus far under President Nelson's dynamic leadership. The thiing is that he has announced 43 new temples total in those 5 General Conferences, which averages out to 8.6 temples per announcement.
Thanks to all who have waded through this lengthy explanation. With all of this said, any of us have a right to our own opinion, and the Lord knows what needs to be done to enable His work to move forward. And He truly is hastening it in its' time. No matter what else may happen, the foreseeable future is bound to be full of temple events, and I can't wait to see it all unfold.
Also, FWIW, as I have previously observed, unless the Church can guarantee that any sort of mobile temple can be staffed by a temple-worthy crew, then any mobile facility that would function as a temple would have to be rededicated every time it makde a stop before ordinances could again be performed. IMHO, that would not be an effective strategy. It appears far more likely that President Nelson will work toward another reported goal of his, which is to have each member of the Church within a round-trip two hour distance from their assigned temple. Since we are very far from even have part of that particular goal fulfilled, I honestly don't see a hiatus on temple announcements occurring anytime soon, if such a hiatus happens at all. The 18 groundbreakings that will occur this year will see a roughly 164% increase from the 11 temple groundbreakings which occurred last year. If we see a similar increase next year, then the Church could break ground on a total of 29-30 temples in 2021, and so on. There will be ammple opportunity to clear the queue of announced temples, in addition to clearing the queue of temples under construction.
Yes, I admire your optimism and you very well could be write. It is amazing that Okinawa and Guam, small islands with relatively small memberships are building temples of the Lord, so there does seem to be an aggressive agenda to continue. Maybe progressive is better than "aggressive". Some accuse our missionaries of being that way. I like the scripture: Every man that is warned should warn his neighbor. (Paraphrase). Or, in the Army: See something, say something. If you see and know a message is good and true, you are Commissioned, by the Commissioner. James, do your physical ailments put you at increased risk for the virus? Not trying to pry or put you on the spot, just concerned. Lastly: Northern Mozambique is facing terrorist issues. I hope that does not poorly affect our Church growth there.
Eduardo, sorry for my delayed response. Technically, many of my health issues do put me in the category among the more vulnerable population susceptible to COVID-19. And there has been an increased number of cases around the area in which I live as recently reported. But my wife was recently tested for COVID-19 due to a situation with her dad's health, and that came back negative. We have been sequestered at home for the most part since before this whole mess started. Any doctor visits I've had have been by phone or video chat. I'm honestly not too worried. At several key points in my life, there were at least 4 or 5 times when I might have died, but the Lord saw fit to preserve my life. And compared to those prior times, a global pandemic, where I am not out in public that much, is probably the lowest of the many high-risk situations I've ever been in. Thanks for your concern.
The Pacific Area Presidency statement was said to have been in reply to a comment on Facebook in reply to another comment under a video posted in relation to the Papua New Guinea temple, no other information, but Rick said something about it on his site in relation to the New Guinea video
James, I asked my dad last night to remind me again of the details of the meeting wherein they learned about President Nelson's wish to announce so many temples. So, for all who are curious about how it went down, here it is:
In March 2019, during the periodic shutdown period of the Vernal Temple, Elder Kevin R. Duncan of the Seventy who is currently serving at Church headquarters as an assistant executive director in the Temple Department and on the Scriptures Committee, conducted an audit with the Temple Presidency.
During that audit, one thing that he told President Norman Nielson was that President Nelson wanted to announce between 18-20 new temples every year for the next 10 years. This information was then shared with the temple workers in the next prayer meeting that they had. My dad mentioned that it was a very spiritual experience.
So, you can see that since April 2019, President Nelson is close to keeping up that pace of temple announcements. That is why I fully expect 8-10 new temples to be announced each General Conference. It leads me to two conclusions: (1) The Lord's work is hastening and President Nelson is making sure that the temples are closer to the people as we prepare the world for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. (2) The Church has a lot of resources due to wise financial decisions and the tithe paying faithfulness of millions of members around the world that enable it to expend a vast amount of money to build and maintain temples.
Slight update to information in your statement, JMR. Elder Duncan may have been the Assistant Executive Director of the Temple Department at the time that statement was made, but in August 2019, Elder Larry Y. Wilson was released and replaced as Executive Director of the Temple Department by Elder Duncan:
I hope my sharing this information is not seen as nitpicking. Thanks for sharing those details. Great to hear yet another witness to insight about President Nelson's goals and plans.
Another thing related to temples, ithas been said that each year, hundreds of thousands of new members, returning members, and youth are for the first time able to get a temple recommend in that year. That means more activity, which fills existing temples to capacity. That even with negatives like going into inactivity and deaths, occasionally it is health concerns that besides interfering with everyday life, collaterally get in the way of things like temple attendance.
They are also beginning to merge temple and family history work with missionary work in the sense is that it gathers things here and after death. Traditional missionary work is how we get the living and temple and family history work is how we get the dead. Since each member has to find ancestors of theirs, as more participate, more of those who have gone will be found and eventually the work will get done.
I have mentioned the substantial backlog of member-found names waiting for temple work and with the temples all down right now that situation has ballooned, so attending the temple more often as time permits will be something to consider after the temples reopen.
Johnathan, although Elder Bateman's statement did make reference to the possibility that the Church could have 1,000 temples by 2025, I am not sure exactly for now when that 1,000 temple milestone might actually be reached. It seems probable, based on information I provided elsewhere, that President Nelson could ensure that at least 300 temples have been announced by 2025. But looking back, it appears that the Church only reached the milestone of having 200 temples in any phase in October of 2018.
When I mentioned previously the possibility of 300 temples in any phase by 2025, by running the figures based on the premise that President Nelson may announce 8 temples in every General Conference between now and then, my calculations showed that the 300 announced temples mark would be reached following the announcement of new temples in the October 2024 General Conference. So if we figure 100 new temples being announced in roughly a 6-year period, then the Church would only reach the milestone of 1,000 temples announced by the end of the October 2066 General Conference, which would likely happen a few decades after President Nelson has passed on.
Based on that data, it appears that for President Nelson's reported desire of a ten-fold increase in the number of temples will almost certainly involve an increased number being announced every six months at some point going forward. I don't quite know when to project that that might happen. Of course, I may be taking too literal an interpretation of Elder Bateman's statement, but based on my research about the current trend of Nelsonian temple announcements, these are just some thoughts that occurred to me.
James, if we assume that President Nelson announces 8 more temples this October and then 18 more temples are announced each year thereafter, it would put us at 500 temples by 2035. One thousand temples is a lot. I don't think I'll be around to see that. I would be 98 years old in 2066. But, God willing, I hope to be alive when we reach 950 temples.
And I will be 80 by the end of 2066. I have often felt that, at some point, President Nelson will dramatically need to increase the number of temples he announces every six months, but a gradual increase of announcing 8 this October and 9 in each General Conference thereafter would accelerate that somewhat. I still remain hopeful that he may announce a bunch of new temples and explain his temple-building intentions specifically in the Church at some point, but the time to do so has clearly not yet arrived.
I'm not so sure about that, Eduardo. Again, in all such scenarios, I see the Church running into a problem of having to clean and/or rededicate all such crafts at each new location they dock or land unless there is assurance of always having an entire crew of Church members both manning such vessels and set apart as temple workers. That might have been a practical solution the Church looked at at one time, but would likely not be so practical now.
There is a reason the Church has hired and continues to hire so many new employees to work for the temple department, just as there is a reason that the Church will be able to increase the number of temple groundbreakings this year to 18 from last year's 11. The Church is preparing for a mass increase in temple construction efforts, which in turn will allow the queue of temples announced and under construction to be cleared more quickly, which in turn will make room for more temples to be announced. Of course, that's not more and no less than my own opinion here, and you are always welcome to believe if you will that airborne or seaborne vessels are the key to that mass number. You won't be surprised if it does happen, and I won't be surprised if it doesn't.
If that does wind up being what the Church does, it will likely only occur once all the wrinkles (such as ensuring those vessels do not need to be cleaned or rededicated whenever they land) are worked out, which could be years down the road. But then again, this is coming from the guy who once was reasonably certain that temples in RUssia, India, and the Middle East were further down the road than they wound up being. So there appears to be a lot of room for interpreation when it comes to how President Nelson's plans will come to fruition, unless and until he himself explains them in detail.
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ReplyDeleteWonder what those guys had to say?
ReplyDelete@Johnathan Reese Whiting, to answer your question. 4 of the deleted comments were mine. I was just inquiring about 3 topics as a sideline.
ReplyDelete1st, I was asking if anyone knew when the "Kaiserslautern Germany Military Stake" (505137) was renamed the "Kaiserslautern Germany Stake" only, eliminating the word "Military".
https://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=49.447004,7.765003&z=18&m=google.hybrid&layers=stakecenter&q=Kaiserslautern%20Germany%20Stake&find=stake.military:505137
2nd post, was a self answer to 1st. It may have been on February 23rd, 2020.
"...KAISERSLAUTERN GERMANY STAKE: (Feb. 23, 2020) President — Darrell M Zaugg, 48, psychiatrist, family physician, United States Air Force; succeeding Joshua D. Adams; wife, Melanie JoMel Gamble Zaugg. Counselors — Aaron Lawrence Harris, 45, chief administrative officer, Landstuhl Regional Medical Center; wife, Jennica Audra Thuet Harris. Trek Craige Potter, 41, cyber operator, United States Air Force; wife, Danielle Marie Sorensen Potter."
https://www.thechurchnews.com/callings/2020-04-25/new-stake-presidents-peru-california-brazil-guatemala-181856
3rd post, was regarding the new boundary changes mentioned Friday on the church's official Classic Maps, when logged into site. Depending on the distance zooming in/out of the map, along with the new "multi-stake (best i can call them) dark blue boundaries marked. I was also commenting/inquiring about the new red color boundary for the 6 previous North America church areas. There is a new red color boundary marking 4 "new" North America Areas. 1st the Utah, North America West and parts of Central and Southwest Areas under 1 Area of unknown name but red color boundary, minus the northern neighboring provinces of Canada. 2nd, a new smaller North America Central area with unknown name. 3rd, a merged North America Southeast and remaining parts of Southwest. 4th, a North America Northeast, unknown if matches old area. All 4 minus Canada Provinces but including Alaska. all with red color borders. Any comments? or if the Church Maps site was hacked? Today, I am having trouble loading those boundaries on the site. I'm not sure what layers I used yesterday to view the lines.
4th post of mine, was inquiry about when the "Queens Creek Arizona Chandler Heights Stake" was renamed the "Queens Creek Arizona Seville Stake". I can't find any record of the change date. And I don't have access to the CDOL. Any thoughts?
Thank you. I didn't receive any thoughts or feedback. So I deleted them due to no interest.
Chris, so it appears that there are now only 4 areas in the US, and that Canada is in its own area. But since you can't load that information today, maybe there's no change from the original 6 North American areas, with Canada included in 3 of them. A new African Central Area was announced to begin August 1, I believe, but I haven't seen any announcement for other Area changes. Is that right?
ReplyDelete@Ray, correct. I thought I was the only one who saw the change..although the normal area changes are on August 1st. And the First presidency recently published the 22 Area Presidencies to begin 08/01. So, I am doubly confused about the new Red boundaries for the 4 USA Areas. and the dark Blue "Multi-Stake (like old 3 Stake Regions from 70's-80's) boundaries marked.
ReplyDeleteChris, FWIW, I highly doubt that the First Presidency would have called 18 men to serve in area presidencies in the US and Canada in 6 area presidencies if there were only 4 areas in North America now. I took some time earlier this month to analyze those changes by GA Seventy and by presidency. According to some of the information I compiled, the North America Central Area presidency has retained the same Area President and First Counselor (S. Gifford Nielsen and Chi Hong (Sam) Wong) and a new Second Counselor has been called (Arnulfo Valenzuela, who returns to Church headquarters following several years abroad in the Mexico Area Presidency).
ReplyDeleteIn the North America Northeast Area, Randall K. Bennett remains the Area President. His former First Counselor, Allen D. Haynie, has been reassigned as First Counselor in the South America South Area. His former Second Counselor, W. Mark Bassett, now serves as First Counselor, and John A. McCune, who has been serving in other capacities at Church headquarters, will now serve as Second Counselor.
For the North America Southeast Area, James B. Martino and Vern P. Stanfill continue their service as Area President and First Counselor respectively, but current Second Counselor Hugo Montoya has been reassigned as Second Cousnelor in the Mexico Area, and Marcos A. Aidukatis, who is returning to Church headquarters after serving in the Brazil Area Presidency since 2014, will serve as Second Counselor.
For the North America Southwest Area, Paul B. Pieiper continues as Area President. His First Counselor, Adrian Ochoa, has been released, and his current Second Counselor, Kyle S. McKay, will succeed him as the new First Counselor. Evan A. Schmutz returns to Church headquarters after serving for several years in the Philippines Area Presidency.
The North America West Area presidency remains almost intact, with Kevin W. Pearson and Scott D. Whiting continuing as President and First Counselor. Current Second Counselor Jörg Klebingat has been reassigned as Second Counselor in the Africa West Area Presidency, and Elder Ruben V. Alliaud will serve as Second Counselor in in the North America West Area presidency.
Similarly, the Utah Area presidency remains largely unchanged with Craig C. Christensen and Walter F. Gonzalez continuing as Area President and Second Counselor respectively, while First Counselor Randy D. Funk has been reassigned as First Counselor in the Middle East/Africa North Area presidency. Mark A. Bragg, who returns to Church headquarters after serving in the South America South Area Presidency since August 2016.
Above and beyond that, I mentioned in this thread or another one here on this blog that there are discrepancies between the official list of area seventies put out by the Church and the records I had of the same. Based on your report, Chris, it seems entirely possible that those discrepancies are due to that list aligning with the four areas shown on the maps of those regions. But until a First Presidency announcement clarifies that there are now only 4 areas in the United States, I'm going to assume that the maps and the list in question are incorrect and that 6 areas are still in operation in North America. Hope this information helps.
Also, Chris, if I might mention something else: I don't know the situations or availabilities of other readers of this blog, but I for one do not always opt to be notified of follow-up comments on posts here to which I have contributed comments. So I am reliant on the checks I can make here when I can make them (which only happens 3-4 times per day on a good day). My worry is that you may be assuming no interest in your comments after no replies are posted to it within a few hours, when it may simply be the case that others are not aware of your comments, and you interpret the lack of reply as a lack of interest when it may just be a lack of ability of readeers of this blog and its' threads to read your comments in a timely manner.
ReplyDeleteIn the spirit of one who is very interested in what you have to say, may I make a suggestion? Instead of removing your comments a few hours after you post them, could you please wait to do so for at least 24-36 hours after they are published here? A longer period might be more appropriate, but I think waiting a day or a day and a half will give you a better opportunity to determine whether or not people are responding to your comments.
Just to clue you in a little on my personal schedule, I am a late-night owl who only first gets up for the day by around noon. And it is not usually until an hour or two later before I can even consider checking the Church Growth blog for additional comments on the latest threads for the first time on any given day.
And based on some of your comments, I've had to do some research to formulate the best response. All of that takes time, during which you may be assuming no interest in your thoughts, when it may just be a delay in finding information to formulate a good response to your feedback, or the fact that the comments are deleted within hours after they are posted, well before some of us (like myself) have even been able to check this blog for the first time on any given day.
Since you are the one leaving the comments, it's your call when and under what conditions they are deleted. But instead of lack of interest, it may be due to a lack of availability, or a lack of sufficient information to adequtely respond to that feedback, that there has been a delay in responding to your feedback. If it isn't too much to ask, could you please leave your comments intact for at least 24-36 hours (perhaps longer if you feel that's reasonable) after you post them here before you jump to the assumption that there is no interest? That would help me personally a lot, and I know it would probably help others as well. Thanks.
@Chris and James:
DeleteI second that. I enjoy reading your comments whether of not I personally am able to answer them, and sometimes it takes the other guys (and gals) a bit to find the answers you're looking for.
Just because a comment or question does not get a direct response does not mean it was invalid. That is like uttering a petition to God, receiving "no answer", and surmising that He did not care, did not hear it, or worse yet, does not exist.
ReplyDeleteAll three are likely wrong conclusions but you need some patience. Please let your comments linger and thanks for reviving them.
Sometimes the best audience of any query is he who asks it, which at minimum enriches that person. But probably others, too.
@Chris I checked on CDOL, and no such stake (either the Queen Creek Chandler Heights or Queen Creek Seville) exists. However, there is a Gilbert Arizona Seville Stake, if that is what you are referring to.
ReplyDeleteJohnathan and Eduardo, thanks for your latest comments here. One of the things I love most about this blog is how we can build and expand on topics under discussion. Unfortunately, when comments are deleted prematurely under incorrect assumptions, that can't happen as fully. So, Chris, through these latest comments, I hope you know how much your feedback in particular is appreciated here. But if none of us are aware there are such comments to respond to, how can we possibly respond to them? I can count on one hand the number of comments I have made that I've wound up deleting on this blog. Almost all of those deletions are due to unintentional duplication of the most recent comments. I will also occassionally delete comments if subsequent comments on any thread make such comments irrelevant, but those are exceptions. So, Chris, leaving your comments intact for a more lengthy period time will greatly enhance the discussions here. Thanks again.
ReplyDeleteChris, to add to the information in Unknown's latest comment, I did some checking as well. And the Church of Jesus Christ Temples site's page for the Gilbert Arizona Temple district shows the Queen Creek Arizona Seville Stake, with no record of a Gilbert Arizona Seville Stake:
ReplyDeletehttps://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/gilbert-arizona-temple/district/
But I do see that on the "Meetinghouse Locator" page that there is a Seville Ward that purportedly pertains to the Gilbert Arizona Seville Stake:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/meetinghouses/@33.217358,-111.743050,14&id=ward:433829
Probably another in the series of examples where the right hand is not aware of what the left hand is doing. I'd think the Church's Boundary and Leadership Change Committee would be responsbile for ensuring that such information is accurate, but that's just my opinion here. Hope this information, such as it is, is helpful.
Matt, I accidentally erased an earlier comment. I had asked how you defined the percentage of a country's population that had been "reached" by the Church. Does it refer to distance from a ward or branch, or something else? Reed. PS. Keep up the great work. It is tremendous!
ReplyDeleteMatt, I accidentally erased an earlier comment. I had asked how you defined the percentage of a country's population that had been "reached" by the Church. Does it refer to distance from a ward or branch, or something else? Reed. PS. Keep up the great work. It is tremendous!
ReplyDelete@Unknown and James, Thamk you for correcting me. I apologize, while retyping the message from Saturday afternoon after deleting prematurely. I had gotten the names Queen Creek and Gilbert Arizona mixed up. Thank you for the correction. I must have misinformed Rick on his site also when i sent him an email about the change Saturday afternoon. and he changed also.
ReplyDeletehttps://classic.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/#ll=33.217358,-111.728888&z=22&m=google.road&q=Gilbert%20Arizona%20Seville%20Stake&find=stake:544116
ReplyDeleteFor further clarification, the Stake #544116, currently called "Gilbert Arizona Seville" was organized on February 17, 2008. Was published in Church News online 06/21/2008. And 2013 Church Almanac page 332.
ReplyDeleteAnd my comments deleted were when I was bloviating and wishing a pox upon heathens and mealy mouth cyber trolls. Those were not removed by me, by the way, because I think I meant everything I shared. I don't like erasing my comments, even the rants, tirades, and screeds. But, each admin must run his/her site as they see fit, I get it.
ReplyDeleteWill there be another 8 temples announced this October 2020? Seems less likely now, huh?
The Church needs to catch up with 7th Day Ads in Belize. Growth in Nicaragua looks encouraging, better than longer term countries Panama and Costa Rica.
ReplyDeleteDoes anybody know if Central American countries use a lot of anti-malaria drugs? This could help them with COVID-19 developments, hopefully.
Mexico may have 1.5 million members this year.
Growth is really unique right now during house sequestrations and work shut downs.
Eduardo, I think President Nelson will announce 7-9 temples in October. I am just curious, why do you think it seems less likely now?
ReplyDeleteEduardo, although the first two sets of temple announcements saw 19 new temples, the other 3 sets of temple announcements made by President Nelson have each seen 8 temples announced.I have heard on good authority that President Nelson's hope is to have 300 temples announced by 2025, which won't happen if he puts a hiatus on temple announcements. After the temples he nnounced in April, there were 43 in the queue of announced temples. 1 other has since had a groundbreaking, and the groundbreakings for 4 more temples have been announced. That will take the queue of announced temples down to 38. And based on what Elder Bednar said last conference, aside from the 5 for which groundbreakings have taken place or will take place, 13 other temples will have their groundbreakings this year. That means by the end of this year, assuming no other temples are announced in October, the queue of announced temples would then go down to 25 total. Everything I have heard on my end points to the notion that President Nelson wants to keep the queue of announced temple at around a total of 35, and that he will be doing more to clear the queue between each General Conference, and 8 seems to be the magic number for now as far as the average number of temples he will continue to announce per conference. Based on all I have laid out here, I am also curious to know why you feel that the announcement of more temples in October is less likely. On what basis are you making that assumption? I fully and firmly believe that the days where a prophet puts a hiatus on temple announcements are done. Any light you can shed on the reasoing for your comment would be appreciated. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteAlso, on another note, in the comments of a video message from the Philippines Area Presidency on Facebook over the weekend, one member in the area asked if the Alabang Philippines Temple groundbreaking took place as scheduled on Saturday May 2. The reply from the area president, Elder Evan A. Schmutz, in response was that the First Presidency had asked that that temple groundbreaking be delayed due to current restrictions put in place by political leaders in the Philippines. The groundbreaking for that temple has been tentatively rescheduled for Saturday June 6, one week after the groundbreaking is held for the Layton Utah Temple, and one week before the groundbreaking occurs for the Auckland New Zealand Temple. Hope this information is helpful to all who read it. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteInteresting the Pacific Area leadership said something, as Alabang is under the Philippines area.
ReplyDeleteThe big changes related to Church organization as far as callings go will allow more to serve in the temple, both as patron and worker. That will in turn help move temples to be filled to capacity and a new one announced in another place between that and another existing temple.
When the temples reopen, expect a major surge that will likely last a few months at least with full sessions for endowments many times, and lines waiting to do other ordinances. While FamilySearch has put all card and name expirations on hold, stories are also reaching me of many going in and finding even more names than ever. One hint for a name on Family Tree can lead to 50 names not known of before and those names almost always needing work, many times all the ordinances. Millions may have been found in the last six weeks and so far, so the need is becoming more acute to go once things open up, and more temples in the future will only aid in reducing the backlog that already has existed for many years. Some names remain with one or more ordinances left to do, some for over 5 years now.
James Anderson, I'm confused. Insofar as I am aware, no one on this thread mentioned the Pacific Area Presidency in relation to the Alabang Philippines Temple. I had mentioned the comment from Philippines Area President Elder Evan A. Schmutz on the matter, and that the request to postpone the groundbreaking had been made by the First Presidency, but I don't see any other comments on this thread that mention the Pacific Area Presidency at all. To what were you referring? Thanks.
ReplyDeleteUnless, of course, you somehow confused my mention that the Alabang Philippines groundbreaking would take place on the Saturday between the Layton Utah and Auckland New Zealand Temple groundbreakings to mean that the Pacific Area Presidency said something about the rescheduling for the Alabang temple. Please let me know either way. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteJames and Eduardo, I will share with you some information that my mother (who is an Ordinance Worker in the Vernal Temple) heard last year. She heard from the Temple Presidency that Elder Kevin R. Duncan had said that President Nelson is planning on announcing 18-20 temples each year for the next 10 years. So, that would put the number of temples operating, under construction, or announced at well over 300. Sounds like the information that James has heard is very similar. So, far the First Presidency is keeping up that pace.
ReplyDeleteJMR, thanks for that information. Did your mother hear that before or after last October's General Conference? If it was after, then I'd assume that we have a higher number of announced temples coming down the pike for the next General Conference. In 2018, President Nelson announced 19 new temples. Last year, he announced a total of 16. That's a grand total of 35 for two years, which averages out to 17.5 each year. I wonder if he opted to announce a lower number the last few conferences due to the focus on other major announcements. I'd assume, then, that he could announce 8-12 for the next several conferences. Thanks for that corroborating information.
ReplyDeleteA native Portuguese member in my U.S. ward visited the Lisbon Temple shortly after its dedication and was excited by reports from friends there. They said a Seventy had told them about a meeting in Salt Lake, where Pres. Nelson said that future temples would eventually number about two thousand. No time frame was mentioned, as far as I know.
ReplyDeleteI know this is a third-hand anecdote, and the "two thousand" reference could have actually been a different number entirely. But the trend line of anticipated rapid growth in temple building thrills all of us who love the temple, and a simple extrapolation shows that providing all ordinances for all of Heavenly Father's children who ever live on earth will require a massive effort. Let the cheering begin!
@Unknown:
DeleteHere's an interesting quote (of BYU President Merrill J. Bateman quoting Brigham Young in the year 2,000):
" In fact, President Brigham Young said:
To accomplish this work there will have to be not only one temple but thousands of them, and thousands and tens of thousands of men and women will go into those temples and officiate for people who have lived as far back as the Lord shall reveal. [JD 3:372]
For many years I thought President Young’s statement would be fulfilled in the Millennium. Maybe it will, but it is incredible that we are living in the day when it has become apparent that thousands of temples will dot the earth. It is quite possible that there will be a thousand or more temples by the year 2025, with thousands more before you students pass through the veil. At the end of this year there will be at least 100 dedicated temples. If 36 temples per year were built for the succeeding 25 years, there would be one thousand temples. That number is quite reasonable, considering there will be 35 or more temples dedicated this year."
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/merrill-j-bateman/dawn-new-millennium/
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ReplyDeleteI would love to see 8 or more new temples announced this fall, but I fear that this pandemic has put a nasty wrench in the works. Temple dedications are certainly being postponed. It would be great for many more members' spirits if new temples were to be announced by the Prophet, in a time of devasting illness, stress, and economic duress. A vaccine might be needed before temple or even church activity is acceptable again. Maybe that view is too pessimistic, but huge numbers of temple workers are elderly...
ReplyDeleteMaybe the older members can do their own meetings and sessions.
I welcome as many temples as possible, even mobile ones on boats and planes. Why not train cars and long coach buses or trailers? That would de sweet to drive and operate one of those. And, gas and diesel may be really cheap for a long time.
@Eduardo
DeleteI doubt the Prophet will postpone announcements this October, just for the simple fact that any Temples announced will be for years down the road, anticipating that the pandemic will conclude long before then.
Eduardo, I understand why you said what you did, but I do think your viewpoint might indeed be too pessimistic. when COVID-19 first had a wide-spread impact, many at that time voiced their opinions that the April General Conference would either be rescheduled or canceled as a result of the pandemic. The Church adapted to that perfectly. Many also said that major developments, including temple announcements, might not occur, but the conference was one of the most doctrinally-rich ones the Church has experienced in a long time, partly because of so many landmark announcements and developments. If anyone had told me in the days leading up to that weekend that temples would be announced in both the UAE and mainland China, I would have dismissed it as impossible. But President Nelson introduced a new Church symmbol, presented the first new Church proclamation since 1995, led a worldwide assembly with the Hosanna Shout (which was something no one could have predicted) and announced 8 temples.
ReplyDeleteAbove and beyond that, we heard Elder Bednar announce that the Church will break ground on 18 temples this year. As far as what you said about the queue of announced temples, you are technically correct that COVID-19 may impact the queue. But only 3 temples were anticipated to be dedicated this year: Durban South Africa, Rio de Janeiro Brazil, and Winnipeg Manitoba. Durban's dedication went ahead as scheduled; the temple in Winnipeg will be dedicated in November (which shouldn't be a problem, given the fact that the region it will serve is comparatively smaller), and Rio will be dedicated once large public gatherings are held.
Similarly, only 3 temples were anticipated to be rededicated at some point this year: Washington DC, Tokyo Japan, and Mesa Arizona. Barring anything unexpected, the DC Temple will be dedicated before the end of this year so as to not have its' opening interfere with the timing of the next US presidential inauguration. There might be a delay in rededicating both Tokyo and Mesa (probably moreso with the former than the latter), but it wouldn't be problematic for the Church to hold off on rededicating either or both of those.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the future queue being log-jammed, I'd remind you of one thing in particular: During the Rome Italy Temple dedication, President Nelson talked about the blessing of having all living apostles in attendance thereat. He said that he hoped they would take their experiences of being together in Rome along with them in their continued global ministry efforts.
Since that time, we have seen him ask every apostle (with the exception of Elder Stevenson) to personally oversee a dedication or rededication of a temple. And the Church often has two apostles traveling together. The reaons I mention that is that since the apostles are commissioned to assist the prophet as they are assinged to do so, if a queue of completed temples does happen to build up, the apostles could be sent out two-by-two, or even one-by-one. It was not all that uncommon during the Hinckley-era building boom for two temples to be dedicated on the same day. So I have no doubt that could happen again, with two sets of apostles going to two different locations to dedicate two temples at the same time.
Above and beyond that, the queue of temples awaiting a dedication will only really build up if COVID-19 conditions continue for the next 18-24 months, which I am hard-pressed to believe will be the case. Aside from the 3 temples that have had or will have their dedications in 2020, there are currently only 5 or 6 temples anticipated to be completed next year, and 3-5 others for which a dedication is anticipated in 2022. So a built-up queue of completed temples would likely only factor in during 2023 at earliest.
It is easy to look at the world and surmise that any world condition would preclude temple announcements. But as the scriptures remind us, with God, nothing is impossible. No matter what metric you're looking at (whether it's the 85 temples mentioned in 2017 by Elder William R. Walker as being on track for announcement within the 15 years following that statement; or the ten-fold increase for which some have said that is President Nelson's endgame goal, or whether it's ensuring that the Church will have 300 temples announced by or before 2025), the only way any of those ambitious goals can be met is if there are regular announcements of new temples every six months, and massive efforts to clear the queue of announced temples between each General Conference.
I hope my extensive reply here is taken in the same spirit in which it is offered. Anyone here certainly has a right to their own opinions, but there have been plenty of comments on this blog alone to the effect that, after each General Conference in which new temples are announced, there could not possibly be more new temples announced the next go-round. And every time, new temples have indeed been announced, with no exceptions in any of the 5 General Conferences we have had thus far under President Nelson's dynamic leadership. The thiing is that he has announced 43 new temples total in those 5 General Conferences, which averages out to 8.6 temples per announcement.
Thanks to all who have waded through this lengthy explanation. With all of this said, any of us have a right to our own opinion, and the Lord knows what needs to be done to enable His work to move forward. And He truly is hastening it in its' time. No matter what else may happen, the foreseeable future is bound to be full of temple events, and I can't wait to see it all unfold.
Also, FWIW, as I have previously observed, unless the Church can guarantee that any sort of mobile temple can be staffed by a temple-worthy crew, then any mobile facility that would function as a temple would have to be rededicated every time it makde a stop before ordinances could again be performed. IMHO, that would not be an effective strategy. It appears far more likely that President Nelson will work toward another reported goal of his, which is to have each member of the Church within a round-trip two hour distance from their assigned temple. Since we are very far from even have part of that particular goal fulfilled, I honestly don't see a hiatus on temple announcements occurring anytime soon, if such a hiatus happens at all. The 18 groundbreakings that will occur this year will see a roughly 164% increase from the 11 temple groundbreakings which occurred last year. If we see a similar increase next year, then the Church could break ground on a total of 29-30 temples in 2021, and so on. There will be ammple opportunity to clear the queue of announced temples, in addition to clearing the queue of temples under construction.
ReplyDeleteYes, I admire your optimism and you very well could be write. It is amazing that Okinawa and Guam, small islands with relatively small memberships are building temples of the Lord, so there does seem to be an aggressive agenda to continue. Maybe progressive is better than "aggressive".
ReplyDeleteSome accuse our missionaries of being that way. I like the scripture: Every man that is warned should warn his neighbor. (Paraphrase). Or, in the Army: See something, say something.
If you see and know a message is good and true, you are Commissioned, by the Commissioner.
James, do your physical ailments put you at increased risk for the virus? Not trying to pry or put you on the spot, just concerned.
Lastly: Northern Mozambique is facing terrorist issues. I hope that does not poorly affect our Church growth there.
Eduardo, sorry for my delayed response. Technically, many of my health issues do put me in the category among the more vulnerable population susceptible to COVID-19. And there has been an increased number of cases around the area in which I live as recently reported. But my wife was recently tested for COVID-19 due to a situation with her dad's health, and that came back negative. We have been sequestered at home for the most part since before this whole mess started. Any doctor visits I've had have been by phone or video chat. I'm honestly not too worried. At several key points in my life, there were at least 4 or 5 times when I might have died, but the Lord saw fit to preserve my life. And compared to those prior times, a global pandemic, where I am not out in public that much, is probably the lowest of the many high-risk situations I've ever been in. Thanks for your concern.
Delete*right.😝
ReplyDeleteIt's better to be nice and kind than right, or something like that.
James, my mother was told that early last year so it was well ahead of October General Conference.
ReplyDeleteThe Pacific Area Presidency statement was said to have been in reply to a comment on Facebook in reply to another comment under a video posted in relation to the Papua New Guinea temple, no other information, but Rick said something about it on his site in relation to the New Guinea video
ReplyDeleteThanks for that clarification, James Anderson!
DeleteJames, I asked my dad last night to remind me again of the details of the meeting wherein they learned about President Nelson's wish to announce so many temples. So, for all who are curious about how it went down, here it is:
ReplyDeleteIn March 2019, during the periodic shutdown period of the Vernal Temple, Elder Kevin R. Duncan of the Seventy who is currently serving at Church headquarters as an assistant executive director in the Temple Department and on the Scriptures Committee, conducted an audit with the Temple Presidency.
During that audit, one thing that he told President Norman Nielson was that President Nelson wanted to announce between 18-20 new temples every year for the next 10 years. This information was then shared with the temple workers in the next prayer meeting that they had. My dad mentioned that it was a very spiritual experience.
So, you can see that since April 2019, President Nelson is close to keeping up that pace of temple announcements. That is why I fully expect 8-10 new temples to be announced each General Conference. It leads me to two conclusions: (1) The Lord's work is hastening and President Nelson is making sure that the temples are closer to the people as we prepare the world for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. (2) The Church has a lot of resources due to wise financial decisions and the tithe paying faithfulness of millions of members around the world that enable it to expend a vast amount of money to build and maintain temples.
Slight update to information in your statement, JMR. Elder Duncan may have been the Assistant Executive Director of the Temple Department at the time that statement was made, but in August 2019, Elder Larry Y. Wilson was released and replaced as Executive Director of the Temple Department by Elder Duncan:
Deletehttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/leader/kevin-r-duncan?lang=eng
I hope my sharing this information is not seen as nitpicking. Thanks for sharing those details. Great to hear yet another witness to insight about President Nelson's goals and plans.
Another thing related to temples, ithas been said that each year, hundreds of thousands of new members, returning members, and youth are for the first time able to get a temple recommend in that year. That means more activity, which fills existing temples to capacity. That even with negatives like going into inactivity and deaths, occasionally it is health concerns that besides interfering with everyday life, collaterally get in the way of things like temple attendance.
ReplyDeleteThey are also beginning to merge temple and family history work with missionary work in the sense is that it gathers things here and after death. Traditional missionary work is how we get the living and temple and family history work is how we get the dead. Since each member has to find ancestors of theirs, as more participate, more of those who have gone will be found and eventually the work will get done.
I have mentioned the substantial backlog of member-found names waiting for temple work and with the temples all down right now that situation has ballooned, so attending the temple more often as time permits will be something to consider after the temples reopen.
Amen to that, James Anderson. Amen to that.
ReplyDeleteJohnathan, although Elder Bateman's statement did make reference to the possibility that the Church could have 1,000 temples by 2025, I am not sure exactly for now when that 1,000 temple milestone might actually be reached. It seems probable, based on information I provided elsewhere, that President Nelson could ensure that at least 300 temples have been announced by 2025. But looking back, it appears that the Church only reached the milestone of having 200 temples in any phase in October of 2018.
ReplyDeleteWhen I mentioned previously the possibility of 300 temples in any phase by 2025, by running the figures based on the premise that President Nelson may announce 8 temples in every General Conference between now and then, my calculations showed that the 300 announced temples mark would be reached following the announcement of new temples in the October 2024 General Conference. So if we figure 100 new temples being announced in roughly a 6-year period, then the Church would only reach the milestone of 1,000 temples announced by the end of the October 2066 General Conference, which would likely happen a few decades after President Nelson has passed on.
Based on that data, it appears that for President Nelson's reported desire of a ten-fold increase in the number of temples will almost certainly involve an increased number being announced every six months at some point going forward. I don't quite know when to project that that might happen. Of course, I may be taking too literal an interpretation of Elder Bateman's statement, but based on my research about the current trend of Nelsonian temple announcements, these are just some thoughts that occurred to me.
James, if we assume that President Nelson announces 8 more temples this October and then 18 more temples are announced each year thereafter, it would put us at 500 temples by 2035. One thousand temples is a lot. I don't think I'll be around to see that. I would be 98 years old in 2066. But, God willing, I hope to be alive when we reach 950 temples.
ReplyDeleteAnd I will be 80 by the end of 2066. I have often felt that, at some point, President Nelson will dramatically need to increase the number of temples he announces every six months, but a gradual increase of announcing 8 this October and 9 in each General Conference thereafter would accelerate that somewhat. I still remain hopeful that he may announce a bunch of new temples and explain his temple-building intentions specifically in the Church at some point, but the time to do so has clearly not yet arrived.
ReplyDeleteThe key to many more temples would be ships, planes, trains, and even trucks or coaches.
ReplyDeleteI'm not so sure about that, Eduardo. Again, in all such scenarios, I see the Church running into a problem of having to clean and/or rededicate all such crafts at each new location they dock or land unless there is assurance of always having an entire crew of Church members both manning such vessels and set apart as temple workers. That might have been a practical solution the Church looked at at one time, but would likely not be so practical now.
ReplyDeleteThere is a reason the Church has hired and continues to hire so many new employees to work for the temple department, just as there is a reason that the Church will be able to increase the number of temple groundbreakings this year to 18 from last year's 11. The Church is preparing for a mass increase in temple construction efforts, which in turn will allow the queue of temples announced and under construction to be cleared more quickly, which in turn will make room for more temples to be announced. Of course, that's not more and no less than my own opinion here, and you are always welcome to believe if you will that airborne or seaborne vessels are the key to that mass number. You won't be surprised if it does happen, and I won't be surprised if it doesn't.
If that does wind up being what the Church does, it will likely only occur once all the wrinkles (such as ensuring those vessels do not need to be cleaned or rededicated whenever they land) are worked out, which could be years down the road. But then again, this is coming from the guy who once was reasonably certain that temples in RUssia, India, and the Middle East were further down the road than they wound up being. So there appears to be a lot of room for interpreation when it comes to how President Nelson's plans will come to fruition, unless and until he himself explains them in detail.