See below to access my SSSR presentation, entitled: International Saints Missiological Survey (ISMS) of over 6,500 Latter-day Saints, 2012-2019: Key Findings and Analysis.
We have over 65,000 full time missionaries and nearly 38,000 church service missionaries. Can anyone tell me about how many of the service missionaries are young and how many are couples?
Downtownchrisbrown - I can't be 100% sure what Matt meant by the effect of mission presidents. However, I suspect that mission presidents and area leadership play a very large role in determining the standards for whether or not a person is progressing, or whether an investigator is ready for baptism. Even after implementation of Preach My Gospel, I am aware of at least one mission that did not require investigators to attend church before baptism. Other missions/areas require that people attend church 3 times before baptism and pass the interview, but even then they may still not understand the level of commitment being asked of them. Other missions may have other arbitrary/"inspired" objective criteria that are used to gauge an investigator's conversion, but none of us can truly judge whether a person is fully prepared for baptism. The reality is that although some people might be able to become converted within a day/week/month/year, that timetable is treated with a 'one size fits all' approach, and if someone is taking too long to progress or get baptized then the missionaries either have to cut that person loose or pressure them into getting baptized in order to satisfy mission goals and leadership directives. Sometimes people convert for the right reasons and other times the missionary is a very good salesman/saleswoman. For example, in my mission approximately 10 years ago, if a person had met all the objective criteria for baptism and still wouldn't get baptized, my mission's culture was for the district leaders to go in with high pressure tactics, if that failed then zone leaders would repeat the process to increase the pressure. As a last recourse, the assistants to the presidents would swoop in and stay at the investigator's house until the investigator finally relented, which then led to that investigator being interviewed on the spot. If the missionaries originally teaching the person couldn't get the investigator baptized within a couple of days from when the investigator finally related then that missionaries were considered ineffective, unfaithful, or slackers. In order to avoid these labels, we tried to spend as much time as possible with the investigator (often hours each day) in the time leading up to their baptism so they wouldn't change their mind. At the baptism we would praise the new convert and throw a big party with cake and other treats. On Sunday, we would wake the investigator up first thing in the morning and either walk the investigator to church or hire a taxi to drive with the investigator to church to make sure they got confirmed. After confirmation, we would at most stop by once a week to try to finish the final lessons and try to get referrals. If the referrals dried up and there wasn't a benefit to our numbers/mission goals by visiting the person then we would stop visiting and usually the person stopped attending. Sometimes we would try harder to at least get males to church one more time to get the Aaronic priesthood in order to satisfy retention goals, but nobody even bothered to track retention of sisters or children.
I've often wondered if there is something to be learned from the Jehovah's Witnesses' approach to conversion. I don't agree with a lot of their tactics, but one thing that I do like is that they have people that live in the neighborhood visit them regularly throughout the conversion process (which can take years). Ideally that should transfer over to ministering assignments in our church, but the reality is that sometimes I think our resources are spread too thin. We are asked to serve in callings, focus on home centered gospel study, participate in ward activities, attend the temple, do our genealogy, take part in service projects, work to support our families, raise children to be successful in school and extracurriculars, and then somehow nurture recent converts who were pressured into baptism to help those converts gain a testimony that they should have received prior to baptism. Yes, there is some overlap with some of those activities, but then you have President Oaks' good/better/best talk where we need to decide what is the best use of our resources. Typically, the home centered gospel study, ward callings, ward activities, service, and temple attendance rise to the top of the priority list and geneology/fellowshipping/missionary work are sometimes put on the back burner.
Compare that with Jehovah's Witnesses where they have smaller congregations with fewer callings, no genealogy, little emphasis on service projects, little emphasis in secular education/extracurriculars, no temple attendance, and fewer ward activities. The Jehovah's Witnesses aren't spread as thin and can use more of their time for fellowshipping and missionary work. I've wondered if we could call most of the retired members of the church to serve as full time fellowship callings to be in charge of regular visits to new converts. Culturally, it seems like many retired members return to Utah or move closer to their grandkids, rarely go on visits with the missionaries, spend more time doing genealogy and temple work, and the ambitious ones serve as service missionaries for 18 - 24 months. The fellowshipping and converting is seen as a job for young missionaries, and the reality is that this approach has, at best, a 50% success rate.
Anonymous, that sounds like a terrible experience for all concerned. On the one hand, I can understand an undercurrent of desire to ensure commitment on the part of investigators. As the Lord said in scripture, "How long halt ye between two opinions?", which some have likened to a bird hopping back and forth between two branches. In this case, one would be remaining committed, and the other would be falling into inactivity. At the same time, however, there is a reson that, in recent years, part of the seminar for new mission leadership has involved at least a few talks regarding how mission leaders can properly ensure true conversion on the part of investigators, and has emphasized how to properly find, teach, commit, and ensure true conversion is happening in the lives of missionaries and investigators alike. Specifically, pressure tactics have been dismissed as ineffective, and an unworthy practice that should be discouraged by mission leaders and on the part of their missionaries. Unfortunately, some mission presidents appear to prioritize their own thoughts, feelings and agendas in governing the matters relating to their stewardships rather than in following the directions and recommendations of general Church leadership, which goes back to what the Lord said in D&C 121 about unrighteous dominion. And at some point they will almost certainly be held accountable for their failures in that respect. The Lord, after all, cannot look upon that kind of thing with the least degree of allowance.
I wouldn't have guessed that that still existed 10 years ago. I know techniques like that were used where I lived in the early 90s. I hope it's out of practice now.
My dad, as a branch president for several years, hated that the missionaries didn't have to (and consequently didn't) consult with him about whether people were ready to be baptized, even though those people would then immediately become his responsibility.
We had one young member's girlfriend attend church for months and then stop attending as soon as she got baptized. You just never know sometimes.
I hope to see how the BYU pathway program help others gain and grow a testamony while also getting an education. I can also see it used as a member-missionary tool. While the pathway program is primarily for members, non members may use it if they have a connection to the church such as through a friend or family member or are investigating the church.
We just had a convert baptism in our ward this past Saturday. He is a young man of 13 years (looks 15) and his parents and 10 year old sister will follow him in about a month. Great family. The mom has a brother that is a member in another ward in the Stake. Great story behind how the most recent missionaries started teaching him. The young men of the ward hace really embraced him. I am excited to see his and his family's growth!
I forgot, but the Mission President and his wife came to the baptism. That is a first for me. They were so kind and spoke with the family for about 20 minutes.
That is awesome, coachodeeps. You never know the influence one righteous indvidual who is truly converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ can have on their families and friends, and I think that applies to longtime Church members just as fully as it does to converts. I also am hopeful that the examples of mission presidents enforcing the wrong ideas and techniques whereby members find and missionaries teach and encourage converts to the Church may become a thing of the past that eventually fades into oblivion and is replaced by the proper perspectives as championed in recent years by apostles. Unfortunately, however, there are those who, as long as they have the freedom of choice, may make the wrong decisions, even if they begin with the best of intentions in mind.
More info on BYU Pathway: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.heraldextra.com/news/local/education/college/byu/continued-growth-sparks-byu-admissions-changes-expansion-of-online-church/article_e9997f0b-dd7d-5fe2-b2db-ec765da70510.amp.html
It has always been a standard instruction to have the investigator (and they are trying to move away from that term too per last year's revision of Preach My Gospel) attend church at least once, more times if possible, and to meet with the bishop/branch president, although a one on one is not mentioned, it sounds like a very good idea so they both get to know him and become comfortable with him and the church generally.
They said Moses Lake has one stake with 4k members in 12 units. IT WILL BE TWICE AS BIG AS EITHER sPOKANE OR cOLUMBIA rIVER ALTHOUGH BOTH ARE EASY TO GET TO, cOLUMBIA rIVER APPEARS TO BE THEIR ASSIGNED TEMPLE PRESENTLY, A MEDIUM SIZE MEETINGHOUSE WILL BE BUILT BESIDE IT SO THE STAKE CENTER IS ELSEWHERE IN THE AREA. What else might be in the potential temple district?
James Anderson, to answer your question. After Moses Lake Washington was announced last year by Pres. Nelson, it was suggested on this Blog by others the possible Moses Lake Washington District would look like this :
Ephrata Washington Stake (from Columbia River) Moses Lake Washington Stake (from Columbia River) Othello Washington Stake (from Columbia River) Wenatchee Washington Stake (from Seattle Washington Temple).
Moses Lake is about to be split into 2 stakes. I would imagine Selah Stake also to be included in the Moses Lake Temple District, which is also about ready to be split into the Selah and Ellensburg Stakes
Also the Columbia River Temple and Spokane Temple are running at capacity most of the time, so I would imagine the Spokane Temple at some point, to be expanded to 20,000-30,000 Sq ft to accommodate growth.
Selah Washington Stake to Columbia River Washington Temple, road distance according to Google Earth is 79.6 miles, and Selah Washington Stake to Moses Lake Washington Temple site is calculated at 99 road miles (20 miles further than Columbia River in Richland). But the suggested Ellensburg Washington Stake could be closer to Moses Lake.
Hello again, everyone! It has been a while since I put in a plug for my blog here, so I will do so now. The month of October has been a busy one. Aside from covering things which occurred before, during, and directly after General Conference, there have been quite a few projects I have shared there recently, including a few different revisions of my thoughts on ongoing temple developments and the timing for future events. There hve also been several reports on the ministry of our apostles and also quite a few Church news reports. For anyone interested in catching up on the latest coverage there, visit the following web address:
http://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com
My thanks again to Matt for his willingness to allow me to continue to share such updates here. In the coming days, I hope to publish the initial draft of my April 2020 General Conference predictions. With that said, now that the site for the Moses Lake Washington Temple has been identified, that brings the total number of temples that could potentially have a groundbreaking within the next year to 12.
I honestly don't know at this point whether or not any other temples might have a groundbreaking before the end of this year, but if nothing else, I'd anticipate the release of official information (including groundbreakings) may be done before the end of this year for the Harare Zimbabwe, Nairobi Kenya, and Bengaluru India Temples. And based on the surprising way in which temple announcements have come down the pike lately, I wouldn't be shocked by other surprise announcements like what occurred with the Moses Lake Washington Temple today.
I do believe it is likely that, during his Southeast Asian Ministry Tour trip next month, the stop in Phnom Penh Cambodia could involve the prophet scouting for sites or else confirming to the Saints that the temple will be built on the Church-acquired plot of land adjacent to the Phnom Pehn Cambodia North Stake Center. I am excited to see what happens there, since my youngest brother-in-law served his mission in that city.
And either way, it appears the next year is going to see a lot more temple news. I can't wait to see it all unfold. My thanks to you all for indulging me in this comment.
My mission has the minimum of 3 times to Church rule. At least our current missionaries do not try to rush into baptism just at that and seem to be trying to build behaviors of faith.
Thanks for posting your presentation, Matt!
ReplyDeleteCan you elaborate on the effect of mission presidents?
ReplyDeleteBack in the SSSR, Matt! Don't know how lucky you are, Matt! Back in the, back in the SSSR!
ReplyDelete(sorry, couldn't resist)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMy mistake, comrade. Boy, is my face RED. ;)
DeleteWe have over 65,000 full time missionaries and nearly 38,000 church service missionaries. Can anyone tell me about how many of the service missionaries are young and how many are couples?
ReplyDeleteI am interested in this for the possible growth of the BYU pathway program.
DeleteDowntownchrisbrown - I can't be 100% sure what Matt meant by the effect of mission presidents.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I suspect that mission presidents and area leadership play a very large role in determining the standards for whether or not a person is progressing, or whether an investigator is ready for baptism. Even after implementation of Preach My Gospel, I am aware of at least one mission that did not require investigators to attend church before baptism. Other missions/areas require that people attend church 3 times before baptism and pass the interview, but even then they may still not understand the level of commitment being asked of them. Other missions may have other arbitrary/"inspired" objective criteria that are used to gauge an investigator's conversion, but none of us can truly judge whether a person is fully prepared for baptism. The reality is that although some people might be able to become converted within a day/week/month/year, that timetable is treated with a 'one size fits all' approach, and if someone is taking too long to progress or get baptized then the missionaries either have to cut that person loose or pressure them into getting baptized in order to satisfy mission goals and leadership directives. Sometimes people convert for the right reasons and other times the missionary is a very good salesman/saleswoman.
For example, in my mission approximately 10 years ago, if a person had met all the objective criteria for baptism and still wouldn't get baptized, my mission's culture was for the district leaders to go in with high pressure tactics, if that failed then zone leaders would repeat the process to increase the pressure. As a last recourse, the assistants to the presidents would swoop in and stay at the investigator's house until the investigator finally relented, which then led to that investigator being interviewed on the spot. If the missionaries originally teaching the person couldn't get the investigator baptized within a couple of days from when the investigator finally related then that missionaries were considered ineffective, unfaithful, or slackers. In order to avoid these labels, we tried to spend as much time as possible with the investigator (often hours each day) in the time leading up to their baptism so they wouldn't change their mind. At the baptism we would praise the new convert and throw a big party with cake and other treats. On Sunday, we would wake the investigator up first thing in the morning and either walk the investigator to church or hire a taxi to drive with the investigator to church to make sure they got confirmed. After confirmation, we would at most stop by once a week to try to finish the final lessons and try to get referrals. If the referrals dried up and there wasn't a benefit to our numbers/mission goals by visiting the person then we would stop visiting and usually the person stopped attending. Sometimes we would try harder to at least get males to church one more time to get the Aaronic priesthood in order to satisfy retention goals, but nobody even bothered to track retention of sisters or children.
investigator finally *relented
ReplyDeleteI've often wondered if there is something to be learned from the Jehovah's Witnesses' approach to conversion. I don't agree with a lot of their tactics, but one thing that I do like is that they have people that live in the neighborhood visit them regularly throughout the conversion process (which can take years). Ideally that should transfer over to ministering assignments in our church, but the reality is that sometimes I think our resources are spread too thin. We are asked to serve in callings, focus on home centered gospel study, participate in ward activities, attend the temple, do our genealogy, take part in service projects, work to support our families, raise children to be successful in school and extracurriculars, and then somehow nurture recent converts who were pressured into baptism to help those converts gain a testimony that they should have received prior to baptism. Yes, there is some overlap with some of those activities, but then you have President Oaks' good/better/best talk where we need to decide what is the best use of our resources. Typically, the home centered gospel study, ward callings, ward activities, service, and temple attendance rise to the top of the priority list and geneology/fellowshipping/missionary work are sometimes put on the back burner.
ReplyDeleteCompare that with Jehovah's Witnesses where they have smaller congregations with fewer callings, no genealogy, little emphasis on service projects, little emphasis in secular education/extracurriculars, no temple attendance, and fewer ward activities. The Jehovah's Witnesses aren't spread as thin and can use more of their time for fellowshipping and missionary work. I've wondered if we could call most of the retired members of the church to serve as full time fellowship callings to be in charge of regular visits to new converts. Culturally, it seems like many retired members return to Utah or move closer to their grandkids, rarely go on visits with the missionaries, spend more time doing genealogy and temple work, and the ambitious ones serve as service missionaries for 18 - 24 months. The fellowshipping and converting is seen as a job for young missionaries, and the reality is that this approach has, at best, a 50% success rate.
Anonymous, that sounds like a terrible experience for all concerned. On the one hand, I can understand an undercurrent of desire to ensure commitment on the part of investigators. As the Lord said in scripture, "How long halt ye between two opinions?", which some have likened to a bird hopping back and forth between two branches. In this case, one would be remaining committed, and the other would be falling into inactivity. At the same time, however, there is a reson that, in recent years, part of the seminar for new mission leadership has involved at least a few talks regarding how mission leaders can properly ensure true conversion on the part of investigators, and has emphasized how to properly find, teach, commit, and ensure true conversion is happening in the lives of missionaries and investigators alike. Specifically, pressure tactics have been dismissed as ineffective, and an unworthy practice that should be discouraged by mission leaders and on the part of their missionaries. Unfortunately, some mission presidents appear to prioritize their own thoughts, feelings and agendas in governing the matters relating to their stewardships rather than in following the directions and recommendations of general Church leadership, which goes back to what the Lord said in D&C 121 about unrighteous dominion. And at some point they will almost certainly be held accountable for their failures in that respect. The Lord, after all, cannot look upon that kind of thing with the least degree of allowance.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't have guessed that that still existed 10 years ago. I know techniques like that were used where I lived in the early 90s. I hope it's out of practice now.
ReplyDeleteMy dad, as a branch president for several years, hated that the missionaries didn't have to (and consequently didn't) consult with him about whether people were ready to be baptized, even though those people would then immediately become his responsibility.
ReplyDeleteWe had one young member's girlfriend attend church for months and then stop attending as soon as she got baptized. You just never know sometimes.
In my branch the missionaries always have potential converts have a one on one meeting with the branch president.
DeleteI hope to see how the BYU pathway program help others gain and grow a testamony while also getting an education. I can also see it used as a member-missionary tool. While the pathway program is primarily for members, non members may use it if they have a connection to the church such as through a friend or family member or are investigating the church.
ReplyDeleteWe just had a convert baptism in our ward this past Saturday. He is a young man of 13 years (looks 15) and his parents and 10 year old sister will follow him in about a month. Great family. The mom has a brother that is a member in another ward in the Stake. Great story behind how the most recent missionaries started teaching him. The young men of the ward hace really embraced him. I am excited to see his and his family's growth!
ReplyDeleteI forgot, but the Mission President and his wife came to the baptism. That is a first for me. They were so kind and spoke with the family for about 20 minutes.
DeleteThat is awesome, coachodeeps. You never know the influence one righteous indvidual who is truly converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ can have on their families and friends, and I think that applies to longtime Church members just as fully as it does to converts. I also am hopeful that the examples of mission presidents enforcing the wrong ideas and techniques whereby members find and missionaries teach and encourage converts to the Church may become a thing of the past that eventually fades into oblivion and is replaced by the proper perspectives as championed in recent years by apostles. Unfortunately, however, there are those who, as long as they have the freedom of choice, may make the wrong decisions, even if they begin with the best of intentions in mind.
ReplyDeleteMore info on BYU Pathway: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.heraldextra.com/news/local/education/college/byu/continued-growth-sparks-byu-admissions-changes-expansion-of-online-church/article_e9997f0b-dd7d-5fe2-b2db-ec765da70510.amp.html
ReplyDeleteAnonymous: what mission was that?
ReplyDeleteSite announced for the Moses Lake Washington Temple. Preliminary plans soon to be underway.
ReplyDeletehttps://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/site-announced-for-moses-lake-washington-temple
It has always been a standard instruction to have the investigator (and they are trying to move away from that term too per last year's revision of Preach My Gospel) attend church at least once, more times if possible, and to meet with the bishop/branch president, although a one on one is not mentioned, it sounds like a very good idea so they both get to know him and become comfortable with him and the church generally.
ReplyDeleteThey said Moses Lake has one stake with 4k members in 12 units. IT WILL BE TWICE AS BIG AS EITHER sPOKANE OR cOLUMBIA rIVER ALTHOUGH BOTH ARE EASY TO GET TO, cOLUMBIA rIVER APPEARS TO BE THEIR ASSIGNED TEMPLE PRESENTLY, A MEDIUM SIZE MEETINGHOUSE WILL BE BUILT BESIDE IT SO THE STAKE CENTER IS ELSEWHERE IN THE AREA. What else might be in the potential temple district?
Sorry about the allcaps, typing snafu, plus issues from my stroke three years ago cause things like that
ReplyDeleteJames Anderson, to answer your question. After Moses Lake Washington was announced last year by Pres. Nelson, it was suggested on this Blog by others the possible Moses Lake Washington District would look like this :
ReplyDeleteEphrata Washington Stake (from Columbia River)
Moses Lake Washington Stake (from Columbia River)
Othello Washington Stake (from Columbia River)
Wenatchee Washington Stake (from Seattle Washington Temple).
Any thoughts?
correction : "announced last year" should read "announced last April 2019". LOL.
ReplyDeleteMoses Lake is about to be split into 2 stakes. I would imagine Selah Stake also to be included in the Moses Lake Temple District, which is also about ready to be split into the Selah and Ellensburg Stakes
ReplyDeleteAlso the Columbia River Temple and Spokane Temple are running at capacity most of the time, so I would imagine the Spokane Temple at some point, to be expanded to 20,000-30,000 Sq ft to accommodate growth.
ReplyDeleteSelah Washington Stake to Columbia River Washington Temple, road distance according to Google Earth is 79.6 miles, and Selah Washington Stake to Moses Lake Washington Temple site is calculated at 99 road miles (20 miles further than Columbia River in Richland). But the suggested Ellensburg Washington Stake could be closer to Moses Lake.
ReplyDeleteHello again, everyone! It has been a while since I put in a plug for my blog here, so I will do so now. The month of October has been a busy one. Aside from covering things which occurred before, during, and directly after General Conference, there have been quite a few projects I have shared there recently, including a few different revisions of my thoughts on ongoing temple developments and the timing for future events. There hve also been several reports on the ministry of our apostles and also quite a few Church news reports. For anyone interested in catching up on the latest coverage there, visit the following web address:
ReplyDeletehttp://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com
My thanks again to Matt for his willingness to allow me to continue to share such updates here. In the coming days, I hope to publish the initial draft of my April 2020 General Conference predictions. With that said, now that the site for the Moses Lake Washington Temple has been identified, that brings the total number of temples that could potentially have a groundbreaking within the next year to 12.
I honestly don't know at this point whether or not any other temples might have a groundbreaking before the end of this year, but if nothing else, I'd anticipate the release of official information (including groundbreakings) may be done before the end of this year for the Harare Zimbabwe, Nairobi Kenya, and Bengaluru India Temples. And based on the surprising way in which temple announcements have come down the pike lately, I wouldn't be shocked by other surprise announcements like what occurred with the Moses Lake Washington Temple today.
I do believe it is likely that, during his Southeast Asian Ministry Tour trip next month, the stop in Phnom Penh Cambodia could involve the prophet scouting for sites or else confirming to the Saints that the temple will be built on the Church-acquired plot of land adjacent to the Phnom Pehn Cambodia North Stake Center. I am excited to see what happens there, since my youngest brother-in-law served his mission in that city.
And either way, it appears the next year is going to see a lot more temple news. I can't wait to see it all unfold. My thanks to you all for indulging me in this comment.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/groundbreaking-held-international-african-american-museum
ReplyDeleteMy mission has the minimum of 3 times to Church rule. At least our current missionaries do not try to rush into baptism just at that and seem to be trying to build behaviors of faith.
ReplyDelete