For those of you who may be interested, I am about to participate in an online forum to discuss prospects for the LDS Church to diversify its international church leadership. Access the discussion here.
Matt, have gone to the discussion you mentioned but its not much of a discussion, just mostly some bitter people with nothing better to do listen to themselves talk...... I must say that there is a difference generally speaking between the church members that leave the church here in Australia and the US. The Aussies are not so bitter. Many blogs and discussion boards that I have read where Americans that have left the church seem very bitter, hurt and angry, oozing sarcasm. They seem to want someone to pay for their misery. Just an observation..... I may be wrong.
While I dont particularly like the tone this blogpost does provide some interesting insight in to the make up of church leadership.
http://www.nearingkolob.com/leaders-mormon-catholic-comparison/ I think it would be very interesting to compare the number of GAs to the length of time since the country was dedicated or some other measures of rate of growth. In other words how much of the local talent is absorbed in local needs?
I wish I had the SW to do cartograms like at worldmapper.org, I think it would make for a useful way to get a feel for church growth, especially if you could do it over time like the bubble graphs at www.gapminder.org
I remember well when president utchdorf was called as a member of first presidency he was asked by a reporter "how does it feel to represent the German people"? he replied that he does not represent the people of any country, German or other and does not represent the people to the Lord or the church but represents the Lord to the people.
At times, like in other organisations, people think that when they come from another background, country etc that they are representatives for that group, but in the Church this is not so, They are called to represent the Lord. In saying that, as an Aussie it is nice to see when people from different nations are called to General church leadership, to me it a reflection of the church's growth when leaders can be considered from the nations of the earth as mission presidents, temple presidents General Aux and GA etc.
Diversity? That's the bombshell conclusion? To poison LDS Church leadership with political correctness? This was a discussion by a handful of people who's collective life-experience and intelligence could fit inside Thomas S. Monson's pinky toe. Matt, I'm disappointed -- I thought you'd be far more supportive of the Church. Brad's got a career to worship, but not you. Your blog is indispensable, but not one word of testimony in that talk? Don't let SLTrib do that, man.
I am a bit confused. This was intended to be more of a light-hearted, speculative discussion on who may fill vacancies in the Quorum of the Twelve. Diversity in Church leadership will not change LDS growth trends and diversity is not a gospel principle. Rather, unity is. However, problems with inactivity, convert attrition, and a conservative interpretation of the centers of strength policy continue to stifle growth in most areas of the Church.
Wow, there are some strong comments here. I enjoy a bit of healthy speculation, because sometimes we get to see a glimpse of why God chooses the way He does. We are often surprised, because our view is limited, but eventually we'll need to understand His ways. Another cool article of speculation is at http://www.modernmormonmen.com/2015/06/guessing-next-apostle.html. (And, of course, it's not like I'm putting money down on anyone; it's just fun to speculate)
Personally, I am biased towards Gérald Caussé from the Presiding Bishopric (I served in his ward on my mission to France, and he is amazing). He has a very Bednar-esque way of doing things. Of course, I think several members of the Presidency of the Seventy are likely candidates.
Note: I discovered that I had been including the Central America in the North American as well as the South & Central numbers.
Only one other Unit was created in this Area namely the Puerto Viejo Branch, San José Costa Rica Los Yoses Stake created March 15.
Unit update 21 July South Africa Johannesburg Mission Branch, South Africa Johannesburg Mission (6 Branches, 6 Stakes)
19 July Pointe-Noire Republic of the Congo District(4 Branches) Aeroport Branch Loandjili Branch Mpaka Branch Pointe-Noire Branch
Powell 4th Ward, Cody Wyoming Stake (12 Wards)
12 July Minhsiung Branch, Chia Yi Taiwan District (7 Branches) Morazan Branch, San Pedro Honduras El Progreso Stake (2 Branches, 9 Wards)
14 June Torkpoi Town Branch, Bo Sierra Leone East District (7 Branches)
YTD 336(11.59/week 29) Africa 114, 33.9% Asia 10, 3.0% Europe 13, 3.9% North America (w/ Caribbean) 91, 27.1% Pacific 22, 6.5% South and Central America 28, 8.3% Utah & Idaho 58, 17.3%
Great discussion and great work by the Tribune, I thought Peggy Stack's article on the same topic was brilliant. Thanks again for your timely and interesting insights. Thank you Matt for participating and sharing your thoughts with the world.
I was inspired by the discussion and wrote a blog post about the same topic for anyone interested! http://metsikmatthew.blogspot.com/2015/07/next-mormon-up.html
19 July Duekoue Branch, Cote d'Ivoire Abidjan West Mission (10 Branches, 3 District, 4 Stakes)
5 July Wilberforce Ward, Freetown Sierra Leone Stake (9 Ward)
YTD 337(11.62/week 29) Africa 115, 34.1% Asia 10, 3.0% Europe 13, 3.9% North America (w/ Caribbean) 91, 27.0% Pacific 22, 6.5% South and Central America 28, 8.3% Utah & Idaho 58, 17.2%
When did this blog turn into a political blog? I'm more interested in reading about the growth of the Church than right wing American political opinions. There is political diversity within the Church and that is a good thing. There are good people inside the church of different political backgrounds and their devotion to the Church shouldn't be questioned because their political views are not congruent with right wing American politics. Can we appreciate that our diversity and respect agency of thought without saying someone is not supportive of the Church?
Politics is about power and policy, which can be uncomfortable as far as opinions and views. Hopefully it is okay to listen to multiple voices and grow in our mutual understanding.
I should point out that not all uses of terms like "conservative" and "liberal" are about politics. These terms have religious meanings that are about the beliefs of the individual with no reference to their political views. Louis Midgely has discussed a group he refers to as religiously liberal Mormons. These people can in fact include supporters of less government taxation, but they oppose the revelatory claims of the restoration. Historically their main spokeman was Sterling McMurrin whose starting view was "you do not have gold plates delivered by an angel."
It does not help that the same terms are used to describe both political and religious views. Nor does it help that at times there are some correlations between the two.
Lastly it is hard to see how something will lead to our mutual understanding when it is just vicious attacks on our faith. That is what most often occurs in Salt Lake Tribune discussion sections.
Also some of us get tired of snarkiness and insincere rudeness and being mocked.
I'm coming late to the conversation, but wanted to put in my two cents. Matt, it appears that the link you shared is now a link to a discussion of the race for Salt Lake County Mayor. I would love to view the original discussion and offer my feedback, but don't know where to find it. I know of some prophets who have said speculation is not something Church members should engage in, but I feel it is only natural to ponder questions like: Who might be called to fill the vacancies in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. I too did a blog post on this subject after Elder Perry died, and I stated on Facebook that, for the record, I would not be doing another such post after the death of President Packer. You can find my thoughts on the subject with the following blog post, which explores what capacity each apostle was serving in before their call to the apostleship and offers my semi-educated guesses as to who might replace Elder Perry and President Packer now too: http://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com/2015/06/report-on-elder-perrys-funeralwho-will.html Hope you enjoy!
Very good. Thank you for your insights.
ReplyDeleteMatt, have gone to the discussion you mentioned but its not much of a discussion, just mostly some bitter people with nothing better to do listen to themselves talk...... I must say that there is a difference generally speaking between the church members that leave the church here in Australia and the US. The Aussies are not so bitter. Many blogs and discussion boards that I have read where Americans that have left the church seem very bitter, hurt and angry, oozing sarcasm. They seem to want someone to pay for their misery. Just an observation..... I may be wrong.
ReplyDeleteWhile I dont particularly like the tone this blogpost does provide some interesting insight in to the make up of church leadership.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nearingkolob.com/leaders-mormon-catholic-comparison/
I think it would be very interesting to compare the number of GAs to the length of time since the country was dedicated or some other measures of rate of growth. In other words how much of the local talent is absorbed in local needs?
I wish I had the SW to do cartograms like at worldmapper.org, I think it would make for a useful way to get a feel for church growth, especially if you could do it over time like the bubble graphs at www.gapminder.org
http://www.worldmapper.org/display_religion.php?selected=561#
I remember well when president utchdorf was called as a member of first presidency he was asked by a reporter "how does it feel to represent the German people"? he replied that he does not represent the people of any country, German or other and does not represent the people to the Lord or the church but represents the Lord to the people.
ReplyDeleteAt times, like in other organisations, people think that when they come from another background, country etc that they are representatives for that group, but in the Church this is not so, They are called to represent the Lord. In saying that, as an Aussie it is nice to see when people from different nations are called to General church leadership, to me it a reflection of the church's growth when leaders can be considered from the nations of the earth as mission presidents, temple presidents General Aux and GA etc.
Diversity? That's the bombshell conclusion? To poison LDS Church leadership with political correctness? This was a discussion by a handful of people who's collective life-experience and intelligence could fit inside Thomas S. Monson's pinky toe. Matt, I'm disappointed -- I thought you'd be far more supportive of the Church. Brad's got a career to worship, but not you. Your blog is indispensable, but not one word of testimony in that talk? Don't let SLTrib do that, man.
ReplyDeleteI am a bit confused. This was intended to be more of a light-hearted, speculative discussion on who may fill vacancies in the Quorum of the Twelve. Diversity in Church leadership will not change LDS growth trends and diversity is not a gospel principle. Rather, unity is. However, problems with inactivity, convert attrition, and a conservative interpretation of the centers of strength policy continue to stifle growth in most areas of the Church.
ReplyDeleteWow, there are some strong comments here. I enjoy a bit of healthy speculation, because sometimes we get to see a glimpse of why God chooses the way He does. We are often surprised, because our view is limited, but eventually we'll need to understand His ways. Another cool article of speculation is at http://www.modernmormonmen.com/2015/06/guessing-next-apostle.html. (And, of course, it's not like I'm putting money down on anyone; it's just fun to speculate)
ReplyDeletePersonally, I am biased towards Gérald Caussé from the Presiding Bishopric (I served in his ward on my mission to France, and he is amazing). He has a very Bednar-esque way of doing things. Of course, I think several members of the Presidency of the Seventy are likely candidates.
Note: I discovered that I had been including the Central America in the North American as well as the South & Central numbers.
ReplyDeleteOnly one other Unit was created in this Area namely the Puerto Viejo Branch, San José Costa Rica Los Yoses Stake created March 15.
Unit update
21 July
South Africa Johannesburg Mission Branch, South Africa Johannesburg Mission (6 Branches, 6 Stakes)
19 July
Pointe-Noire Republic of the Congo District(4 Branches)
Aeroport Branch
Loandjili Branch
Mpaka Branch
Pointe-Noire Branch
Powell 4th Ward, Cody Wyoming Stake (12 Wards)
12 July
Minhsiung Branch, Chia Yi Taiwan District (7 Branches)
Morazan Branch, San Pedro Honduras El Progreso Stake (2 Branches, 9 Wards)
14 June
Torkpoi Town Branch, Bo Sierra Leone East District (7 Branches)
YTD 336(11.59/week 29)
Africa 114, 33.9%
Asia 10, 3.0%
Europe 13, 3.9%
North America (w/ Caribbean) 91, 27.1%
Pacific 22, 6.5%
South and Central America 28, 8.3%
Utah & Idaho 58, 17.3%
Totals no-sensitive
Areas Temples Miss Stakes Dist Wards Branch Totals
Global 25 147 418 3,138 548 22,394 7,336 34,006
Us/Can 11 80 131 1,586 11 12,501 2,068 16,388
US n/a 72 124 1,539 8 12,165 1,916 15,824
Utah n/a 15 10 576 1 4,661 326 5,589
Canada n/a 8 7 47 3 336 152 553
Out 14 67 287 1,552 537 9,891 5,265 17,618
With Sensitive
Areas Temples Miss Stakes Dist Wards Branch Totals
Global 25 147 418 3,138 559 22,398 7,426 34,111
God is in charge. He gives us freedom to speculate. I think we need a Spanish native speaker. But we shall see.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGreat discussion and great work by the Tribune, I thought Peggy Stack's article on the same topic was brilliant. Thanks again for your timely and interesting insights. Thank you Matt for participating and sharing your thoughts with the world.
ReplyDeleteI was inspired by the discussion and wrote a blog post about the same topic for anyone interested!
http://metsikmatthew.blogspot.com/2015/07/next-mormon-up.html
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete19 July
ReplyDeleteDuekoue Branch, Cote d'Ivoire Abidjan West Mission (10 Branches, 3 District, 4 Stakes)
5 July
Wilberforce Ward, Freetown Sierra Leone Stake (9 Ward)
YTD 337(11.62/week 29)
Africa 115, 34.1%
Asia 10, 3.0%
Europe 13, 3.9%
North America (w/ Caribbean) 91, 27.0%
Pacific 22, 6.5%
South and Central America 28, 8.3%
Utah & Idaho 58, 17.2%
Totals no-sensitive
Areas Temples Miss Stakes Dist Wards Branch Totals
Global 25 147 418 3,138 548 22,394 7,336 34,006
Us/Can 11 80 131 1,586 11 12,501 2,068 16,388
US n/a 72 124 1,539 8 12,165 1,916 15,824
Utah n/a 15 10 576 1 4,661 326 5,589
Canada n/a 8 7 47 3 336 152 553
Out 14 67 287 1,552 537 9,893 5,268 17,618
With Sensitive
Areas Temples Miss Stakes Dist Wards Branch Totals
Global 25 147 418 3,138 559 22,398 7,426 34,111
When did this blog turn into a political blog? I'm more interested in reading about the growth of the Church than right wing American political opinions. There is political diversity within the Church and that is a good thing. There are good people inside the church of different political backgrounds and their devotion to the Church shouldn't be questioned because their political views are not congruent with right wing American politics. Can we appreciate that our diversity and respect agency of thought without saying someone is not supportive of the Church?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePolitics is about power and policy, which can be uncomfortable as far as opinions and views. Hopefully it is okay to listen to multiple voices and grow in our mutual understanding.
ReplyDeleteI should point out that not all uses of terms like "conservative" and "liberal" are about politics. These terms have religious meanings that are about the beliefs of the individual with no reference to their political views. Louis Midgely has discussed a group he refers to as religiously liberal Mormons. These people can in fact include supporters of less government taxation, but they oppose the revelatory claims of the restoration. Historically their main spokeman was Sterling McMurrin whose starting view was "you do not have gold plates delivered by an angel."
ReplyDeleteIt does not help that the same terms are used to describe both political and religious views. Nor does it help that at times there are some correlations between the two.
Lastly it is hard to see how something will lead to our mutual understanding when it is just vicious attacks on our faith. That is what most often occurs in Salt Lake Tribune discussion sections.
Also some of us get tired of snarkiness and insincere rudeness and being mocked.
Yeah, understood.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI'm coming late to the conversation, but wanted to put in my two cents. Matt, it appears that the link you shared is now a link to a discussion of the race for Salt Lake County Mayor. I would love to view the original discussion and offer my feedback, but don't know where to find it. I know of some prophets who have said speculation is not something Church members should engage in, but I feel it is only natural to ponder questions like: Who might be called to fill the vacancies in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. I too did a blog post on this subject after Elder Perry died, and I stated on Facebook that, for the record, I would not be doing another such post after the death of President Packer. You can find my thoughts on the subject with the following blog post, which explores what capacity each apostle was serving in before their call to the apostleship and offers my semi-educated guesses as to who might replace Elder Perry and President Packer now too: http://stokessoundsoff.blogspot.com/2015/06/report-on-elder-perrys-funeralwho-will.html Hope you enjoy!
ReplyDelete