tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post6923726761489774865..comments2024-03-19T01:34:05.989-06:00Comments on Growth of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church): New Stakes Created in Nevada, Uganda, and Utah; District Created in the Philippines; District Discontinued in the PhilippinesMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16030323360917985701noreply@blogger.comBlogger121125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-38920194638179862852017-03-01T22:50:03.608-07:002017-03-01T22:50:03.608-07:00The trouble with Wikipedia is that it focuses more...The trouble with Wikipedia is that it focuses more on what is verifiable rather than what is true. And I can see why that neutrality is necessary. But as I have stated before, I have found it necessary to step away from Wikipedia for a time because I too often get frustrated when my motives for editing, my neutrality, and even my character are called into question. That is the same reason why I have at times stepped away from commenting here. I never know if anyone might be offended by something I have said or the way I have said it.<br /><br />If anyone here feels I have offended them in any way, I apologize. I hope we can continue to kindly discuss the important developments going on with Church growth without judging the character or motivations of others. I am often reminded of a couple of stanzas from the hymn "Lord, I Would Follow Thee" that say:<br /><br />Who am I to judge another, <br />When I walk imperfectly?<br />In the quiet heart is hidden<br />Sorrow that the eye can't see.<br /><br />We truly can never tell what motivates or drives others unless we know what their experiences have been. I hope that the future conversations on this blog will mirror that line of thinking.<br /><br />In regards to temples, it is most significant indeed that not only have all seven temples announced in the last two years been outside the United States, but also that, unless new temples are announced in the United States at some point this year, for what I believe is the first time in Church history, we will not have any temples in any phase of construction in the US. I am not counting Jordan River in that estimation because it is a renovation, not a new temple. So hopefully that changes this year.<br /><br />I always anticipate at least three new temples every General Conference, and with the four announced last year, I had correctly identified the exact location of two (Quito Ecuador and Harare Zimbabwe) and the right nation but wrong city for the other two (I was predicting Belo Horizonte for Brazil, and Iquitos for Peru). I don't claim to be prophetic by any means, but the fact that I essentially had around 75% accuracy with these temple predictions tells me that there is at least some merit to the research I have done that has led to these predictions. If that statement makes me appear to brag, so be it.<br /><br />The discussion of several different aspects of temples is one of the main topics on the LDS Church Growth Forum. I hope that the discussion can continue in both places. I also hope that my comments in both places prove helpful and informative to many of you. Thanks for reading this.James G. Stokeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13331619300918542708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-35633630594914521712017-02-27T04:14:46.638-07:002017-02-27T04:14:46.638-07:00@Mike Johnson:
I appreciate your point of view.
...@Mike Johnson:<br /><br />I appreciate your point of view. <br /><br />I mostly was citing Wikipedia for its easy-to-reference lists of the different theories, and not as an end source in and of itself. Johnathan Reese Whitinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05271748150823074792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-53107925061234990992017-02-27T03:47:19.803-07:002017-02-27T03:47:19.803-07:00I wouldn't rely on wikipedia to arbitrate the ...I wouldn't rely on wikipedia to arbitrate the debate on Book of Mormon geography.<br /><br />I keep an open mind on all three of the major theories: Heartland, MesoAmerican, Peru/Andes. I like when all advocates put forth their case for their model but don't like when they try to disparage another model. Usually in doing so they argue past the advocates of the attacked theory pointing out as discrepancies things easily solved in the other models. <br /><br />After many decades of personal search for Book of Mormon geography, I came to the conclusion that if God wanted us to know, he would have told us. And maybe he doesn't want us to know because victors tell the story. If we knew some area was Nephite, the legends about them would undoubtedly have been very negative, because those were the stories told by the Lamanites at the time.<br /><br />Looking for language matches, remember what Moroni wrote after the Nephites were destroyed: "And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech." (Mormon 9:32)Mike Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10025612146815804945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-77296711798212235462017-02-26T21:40:27.752-07:002017-02-26T21:40:27.752-07:00@Eduardo:
Speaking of the Hopi, you may be famili...@Eduardo:<br /><br />Speaking of the Hopi, you may be familiar with a site they hold sacred: Chaco Canyon.<br /><br />https://www.exploratorium.edu/chaco/HTML/canyon.html<br /><br />It is essentially one large temple/sacred site whose buildings correlate with many astronomical cycles, built over hundreds of years. <br /><br />There have been a few documentaries about it (including one narrated by Robert Redford). I'd recommend checking them out if you want your mind blown. Johnathan Reese Whitinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05271748150823074792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-3161538235690851282017-02-26T19:53:48.995-07:002017-02-26T19:53:48.995-07:00@ brycen:
While I appreciate John L. Sorenson'...@ brycen:<br /><br />While I appreciate John L. Sorenson's scholarly research and opinions about the Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon, I don't fully agree with it. <br /><br />In the last couple of decades or so, a growing minority of LDS scholars and enthusiasts have indicated that their research points towards the Midwestern and Eastern United States, including the Great Lakes region and the area of the ancient North American Mound Builder civilizations as the setting for much of the Nephite and Lamanite geography.<br /><br />There are many theories for the location of the Book of Mormon setting being explored, and the book is certainly not closed on this matter.<br /><br />See the following article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_geography_model<br /><br />Other than Professor Sorenson, other notable LDS Scholars who've held differing views on this matter include the following:<br /><br />Hugh Nibley: "The Book of Mormon is a history of a related primitive church, and one may well ask what kind of remains the Nephites would leave us from their more virtuous days. A closer approximation to the Book of Mormon picture of Nephite culture is seen in the earth and palisade structures of the Hopewell and Adena culture areas than in the later stately piles of stone in Mesoamerica." (As well as other statements.)<br /><br />Joseph Smith: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Book_of_Mormon_geographical_setting#Joseph_Smith.27s_statements_regarding_Book_of_Mormon_geography<br /><br />As well as others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_geography_model#Great_Lakes_setting<br /><br />As far as "people with Native American blood want to feel some personal connection with the people of the Book of Mormon" goes, I am one of those people with Native American blood who feels a personal connection to the Book of Mormon. I have Mohican tribe ancestry, and I feel I am a descendant of Father Lehi. I will continue to feel this way until a Prophet (not just an LDS scholar or professor) states conclusively that North American Indians are NOT descendants of the Nephites and Lamanites.<br /><br />As far as a Prophet's statements about North America being the setting for the BOM, and the North American indigenous peoples being related to the Book of Mormon peoples, I tend to side with Brother Joseph's own statements on this matter:<br /><br />"Wandering Over the Plains of the Nephites:" http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2015/05/wandering-over-the-plains-of-the-nephites/<br /><br />The Zelph Account: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelph<br /><br />North American Native Americans referred to as "Lamanites:" https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-lamanite-mission?lang=eng<br /><br /><br />Johnathan Reese Whitinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05271748150823074792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-90852264616398843892017-02-26T14:32:19.381-07:002017-02-26T14:32:19.381-07:00I think the linguistic relationships prove more in...I think the linguistic relationships prove more interesting than the geo-locational ideas, like figuring out how the Basque language is such an outlier in Europe and the rest of the world.<br /><br />I wonder if the languages of the states of Chiapas or Oaxaca or parts of Guatemala could have any connection to Semitic patterns, thinking how Nahuatl is apparently not like other extant languages of today. Fascinating.<br /><br />My good friend who is going to write a book about the southern Mexico region, was captivated by a book about the Hopi as a young man, and how much of their symbolism and sacred beliefs had corrolaries to temple rites and other private practices that he knew of. He said it changed his view of the world, which is amazing. He now is a Chinese expert but has strong contacts with Guatemala and that part of the world.Eduardohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05019747288076783700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-81882503609550859722017-02-26T09:36:31.831-07:002017-02-26T09:36:31.831-07:00There are lots of scholars who have tried to map o...There are lots of scholars who have tried to map out the book of Mormon. Probably the best argument I ever came across was that the Sac and Fox tribal groups of the Midwest are descendents of Lehi. There are several scriptural and scientific arguments for it, but as was said before, it should be taken with a grain of salt. It should not be a priority to prove the book of mormon as much as to gain a testimony of it.David Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16633681311966766482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-86416743311703345182017-02-26T08:09:40.321-07:002017-02-26T08:09:40.321-07:00On an unrelated note, I wonder if we'll have a...On an unrelated note, I wonder if we'll have any new temple announcements for the United States. If I have figured it out correctly, it's been 4 years since the last such announcement (Cedar City, in 2013). I can't help wondering if there's a reason why everything announced since then has been outside the US. I know temples tend to be built more quickly in the country, so there's a big backlog in non-US temples, but is there another reason? Maybe I'm just being paranoid. Anyway, we'll find out in April. I definitely expect at least 2 or 3 more temples to be announced then. We've had new announcements every year except one (2014) since President Monson has been the prophet. That seems to be the new pattern since the 2-year hiatus in announcements: announcements in April of 3 - 5 new temples, and none in October General Conference. If we have more announcements in April, it will make three times for this new pattern.brycenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06647969765335483660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-41137129488370409982017-02-26T07:51:29.428-07:002017-02-26T07:51:29.428-07:00The Micmac (not their preferred spelling) were mos...The Micmac (not their preferred spelling) were mostly found in northern New England and are now mostly in eastern Canada. I looked them up because in an old Disney movie, Those Calloways, set in Vermont, the main character played by Brian Keith had been raised by Micmac Indians. <br /><br />I would not expect the language closest to the Nephite tongue to be in that region. Based on many geographic analyses of the Book of Mormon, I would think that studying native languages from Mesoamerica (southern Mexico and Guatemala) would make more sense.<br /><br />Former BYU anthropology professor John Sorenson wrote a big book going through all the major geographic descriptions in the text of the Book of Mormon, and finding a good fit for the Nephite cities in the state of Chiapas, the southernmost state in Mexico. In fact the cities of Ammonihah and Sidom, where the men cast out of Ammonihah fled, would both be very close to the temple in Tuxtla Gutierrez if his geography is correct. I'm not saying he was right about everything, but in my opinion that is the best place to start doing such language studies. Many, many other LDS scholars agree that that region is most likely where most of the events in the Book of Mormon took place, even where they have slight differences in their correlations.<br /><br />I understand that people with Native American blood want to feel some personal connection with the people of the Book of Mormon, probably for the same reasons I feel tempted to bring up LDS pioneer ancestors in conversations. Ultimately, though, such personal connections can be a distraction from what's really important (I include myself in this reminder).brycenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06647969765335483660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-50422627808789849682017-02-26T05:16:39.790-07:002017-02-26T05:16:39.790-07:00That's funny (cool): I found out 4 1/2 years a...That's funny (cool): I found out 4 1/2 years ago that I am 1/16 Micmac. My dad found out more of the mysterious ancestry through his estranged biological father.<br />My daughter said she wanted to go to Nova Scotia to be with "our people". ☺<br />BYU basketball made history last night. I saw tweets of non-members, including African-Americans, who were supportive and said notably (assuming not LDS ThrillBarton): "Tonight we are all BYU".<br />Earlier in the season commentators were marveling at RM star Erik Mika, remarking that more coaches would like to send their big men to Italy for 2 years if they would end up playing like him. Future pro and public missionary.Eduardohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05019747288076783700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-83225029201186203982017-02-26T00:16:10.914-07:002017-02-26T00:16:10.914-07:00@Eduardo:
A lot of informal research has been don...@Eduardo:<br /><br />A lot of informal research has been done about the possible connection/similarity between the Micmac Indian language and the Reformed Egyptian from the Anthon Transcript. <br /><br />Here's an example of that theory: http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/native-american-egyptian-hieroglyph.html<br /><br />As far as Native American heritage as it pertains to the peoples of the Book of Mormon, here's an official article on DNA evidence from the Church's website: https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng&old=true<br /><br />And here's one from an independent source: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/DNA_evidence/Geography_issues/Haplogroup_X2a<br /><br />As far as the language of the Book of Mormon goes, many scholars (or enthusiasts) I've read up on try to first point out the Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon (such as chiasmus, as pointed out by John Welch), and then try to show how those or other Hebraisms are present in Native American oral or written traditions. Johnathan Reese Whitinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05271748150823074792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-67888292211825469962017-02-25T17:21:59.873-07:002017-02-25T17:21:59.873-07:00Thinking about the complexity of native American l...Thinking about the complexity of native American languages, has there been much analysis or research as to which ones might be closer to Book of Mormon peoples? I plead ignorance to such matters.<br />I do think some American indigenous bear little connection to Lamanites or remnants of Nephites or Mulekites. But there must be a few, now mixed with many Latinos or even Polynesian islanders or Filipinos.Eduardohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05019747288076783700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-10184963688973381932017-02-17T19:40:49.469-07:002017-02-17T19:40:49.469-07:00Since it had to do with family history work, and t...Since it had to do with family history work, and that the main focus was going to be the taking of names to the temple ultimately, and that it was mentioned the possible number of ancestors collectively current Church members have, I think that although it hass more to do with what consultants will be doing in helping members to that end, it well could result in the need for more temples in a few years especially if the effort really takes off under the new programs they are testing and which were in part outlined in the video. And the new reports available to leaders in LCR.<br /><br />Didn't know there was a second James on here, that is interesting there was no way to distinguish between the two.James Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12831340842937216806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-58878812423279474072017-02-16T23:35:42.877-07:002017-02-16T23:35:42.877-07:00I saw your post and the link. I have yet to have t...I saw your post and the link. I have yet to have time to view the video. But now that you have shared that it might have information that will be interesting to me specifically in terms of the focus of my blog, I will make it more of a priority. I might be able to get to it tomorrow. Thanks for the reminder. I appreciate it. That said, I hope you were not responding to another James here. But since my blog name is just my first name, I have no doubts that your comment above was directed to me. Let me know if I am in error. Thanks again.James G. Stokeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13331619300918542708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-83469751702529157042017-02-16T13:44:41.436-07:002017-02-16T13:44:41.436-07:00James, did you see the post about the video from R...James, did you see the post about the video from Rootstech near the end of the comments on the 'Correctios' post? That is all major stuff and clearly to me has ramifications in regards to temples and future announcements, especially more of them. For if they succeed with the new program and plans outlned in that video, we could see a jump in activity at most if not all temples. <br /><br />That activity along with other factors will likeky kead to moretemples, some renovations to possibly expand smaller temples particularly the late-90s smaller temples, and quite possibly the addition of more hours if they can get more workers.James Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12831340842937216806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-71441381816439010192017-02-15T00:25:07.788-07:002017-02-15T00:25:07.788-07:00David, whenever my comments run on too long (as th...David, whenever my comments run on too long (as they far too often happen to) I know that I have been all too quick to justify their length while also being sharply critical of well-meaning people on this blog and being worried about the potential effect lengthy or unkind comments have had on other people. I have often forced myself to take an absence from this blog whenever I have felt that my comments might have created a problem. Thanks so much for the reminder that we all need to be kind. It is desperately needed. I do apologize to any who might find my comments too lengthy, boring, or not appropriate to the relevant subject.<br /><br />That said, in the interest of being considerate of how my comments affect others, I have found it best to refer to this blog and the LDS Church Temples website, especially lately, by the entity rather than by person. I would hate to think that any comment of mine might create problems in any way for those who run such sites. Referring to the work rather than the person seems to make more sense. Just a suggestion, for what it's worth. I know no one means anything by personal mentions, but I prefer to leave no room for any issue.<br /><br />I have found that the sites report much more updated information than anything available in any other source. And I appreciate how seriously those who operate these sites take their duty to keep us updated on such developments as they happen. That's all I will say in that regard.<br /><br />Bryan, as I have before mentioned, Kenya has been on my list of near future possibilities for several years, and that is largely due to reports on this blog and elsewhere on the growth in that nation. I would put such an announcement as more of a likely possibility to happen than within two or three years. I would be surprised if it didn't happen by the end of next year, truth be told. But time will tell.<br /><br />As before mentioned by me as well, Lehi seems like the next most likely possibility for a temple in Utah County. It won't surprise me if another city gets one first. That has been known to happen. But it is a great candidate, for reasons I have before outlined. The same holds true for Layton in its county.<br /><br />Lehi and Layton seem like the most likely possibilities for Utah's next temples, but other cities won't surprise me at all either, including those repeatedly mentioned here and on my own blog. And John, I have before (perhaps on this very thread) made my case for why I think Utah County's next temple will be built in Lehi. Time will tell. We might know the answer by this time two months from now.<br /><br />I would love it if a temple were built in Orem. That is where I now reside. But its close proximity to the three near the area (the two in Provo and the one in American Fork) make it not very likely.<br /><br />I look forward to all such developments, and you can count on hearing about them as soon as I can make it happen on my own blog. My thanks to all who are contributing so much to these important discussions.<br /><br /><br /><br />James G. Stokeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13331619300918542708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-5750163385121063342017-02-13T10:51:35.699-07:002017-02-13T10:51:35.699-07:00Since there are districts next to each other in th...Since there are districts next to each other in the Philippines, couldn't they combine those districts to make StakesBryansb1984https://www.blogger.com/profile/01188210431454868034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-81184032736159698752017-02-12T09:21:38.758-07:002017-02-12T09:21:38.758-07:00If announced, I think it will be Orem. Lehi too.
...If announced, I think it will be Orem. Lehi too.<br /><br />The temple district for Provo would then take back the YSA stakes that Provo City Center has, and the Orem district would take most of Orem and possibly be extended north to 16th or 20th North.<br /><br />Lehi would take the areas west of the freeway in AF or nearly so.<br /><br />James Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12831340842937216806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-61545669376412839292017-02-11T22:27:08.896-07:002017-02-11T22:27:08.896-07:00My prediction for the next temples in the Utah Val...My prediction for the next temples in the Utah Valley are Orem and Lehi/Saratoga Springs.<br /><br />Springville/Mapleton area would be nice, too, as it is an area that was founded by some of my pioneer ancestors. Several trees planted in Mapleton by my Great-Great Grandfather, Edwin Whiting, are supposed to still be standing, and Whiting Campground in Maple Canyon was named for him and his family. <br /><br />For more info: http://www.edwinwhiting.com/index.php/where-he-lived/springville-utah/82-springville-utah-driving-tourJohnathan Reese Whitinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05271748150823074792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-14400878459909968362017-02-11T18:41:33.120-07:002017-02-11T18:41:33.120-07:00I expect a temple announced for Lehi, but that wou...I expect a temple announced for Lehi, but that would only really relieve Mt. Timpanogos. I think Springville/Mapleton or maybe Spanish Fork will also get a temple, Springville most likely. John Pack Lamberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05086707132348039415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-26510326523444809032017-02-11T11:14:38.245-07:002017-02-11T11:14:38.245-07:00Maybe a temple might be announced for Orem or mayb...Maybe a temple might be announced for Orem or maybe SprinvilleBryansb1984https://www.blogger.com/profile/01188210431454868034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-18224337082523567882017-02-11T07:01:07.327-07:002017-02-11T07:01:07.327-07:00No, Tzotzil and Nahuatl are not even in the same l...No, Tzotzil and Nahuatl are not even in the same language families. Only Tzotzil has LDS materials translated. Visit this page on cumorah.com for more information on Amerindian peoples in Mexico: http://cumorah.com/index.php?target=view_case_studies&cat_id=7Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16030323360917985701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-64154202959480450112017-02-11T06:57:20.453-07:002017-02-11T06:57:20.453-07:00Is Tzotzil anything like Nahuatl?Is Tzotzil anything like Nahuatl?Eduardohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05019747288076783700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-74482669172167866282017-02-10T07:55:33.748-07:002017-02-10T07:55:33.748-07:00Comitan has six branches and I believe a group. T...Comitan has six branches and I believe a group. The Distrito Comitan FB page has a picture of a Primary class being held in a town called Rodolfo Figueroa southeast of the city.<br /><br />The three branches in Comitan would be wards within a stake. Two of them WERE wards when the San Cristobal Stake included Comitan (now it is the San Cristobal district--done to ease geographical burdens on the leaders). The Las Rosas branch, Comalapa branch, and the new Flor de Mayo Branch are still branch size though Comalapa would be close to ward size.<br /><br />More expansion is needed. Margaritas would be a good start (though the majority of that area goes to one of the Comitan branches already). <br /><br />San Cristobal has four branches, three of them ward size and the remaining branch (Ocosingo) near ward size. Multiple groups exist in Elambo, Teopisca, Oxchuc, and Yajalon.<br /><br />Chojolho District has 5 branches of which four are near ward size. All of them are Tzotzil speaking.Bryan Dormanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12260239058235089111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2786908254617003646.post-30371251801594411822017-02-09T21:41:49.660-07:002017-02-09T21:41:49.660-07:00The Utah county temples are all running at or near...The Utah county temples are all running at or near capacity. Provo Cit Centeris only less than a year after it opened. Provo already has come back and that is running at very near capacity again. As noted earlier, Mount Timpanogos is at capacity and that is now confirmed, and Payson is also nearing capacity. <br /><br />Something is going to happen, if not this Conference, maybe one of the next few.James Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12831340842937216806noreply@blogger.com